Knicks want to bring back Prigioni.........as an asst coach

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Re: Knicks want to bring back Prigioni.........as an asst coach

Postby taowave » February 14, 2018, 12:31 pm

Pablo's game is polar opposite of what Frank's should be.Clyde was a big guard,,great on D, unbelievably confident and similar to Frank in his demeanor. And the guy was built to excel in NYC..

Interestingly,I don't think I ever saw Clyde dunk. Guy was as cool as they come.Watch his game7 performance against the Lakers without Willis
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Re: Knicks want to bring back Prigioni.........as an asst coach

Postby NYGM » February 14, 2018, 1:13 pm

People need to remember Walt Frazier wasn't "Clyde" in his first couple of years in the league..

Clyde was a backup and player poorly (said by himself) in his first year.. Keep in mind that Clyde wasn't 19 but the time..

No need to make conclusions on a rookie year..
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Re: Knicks want to bring back Prigioni.........as an asst coach

Postby Don Che » February 14, 2018, 1:28 pm

yeh he was 22...like most of the guards before this era of play

NBA has to be able to actually coach talent not just flip it..esp how the cap is going to go.

money into scouting and development should be sky high
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Re: Knicks want to bring back Prigioni.........as an asst coach

Postby taowave » February 14, 2018, 1:49 pm

He was Clyde in his second year

18 pts, 8apg and 6 reb...50% from the floor...




NYGM wrote:People need to remember Walt Frazier wasn't "Clyde" in his first couple of years in the league..

Clyde was a backup and player poorly (said by himself) in his first year.. Keep in mind that Clyde wasn't 19 but the time..

No need to make conclusions on a rookie year..
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Re: Knicks want to bring back Prigioni.........as an asst coach

Postby NYGM » February 14, 2018, 2:32 pm

Yes Tao..Second year..

Hopefully we can expect our rookies to produce before 23 years old... Just like KP is doing..
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Re: Knicks want to bring back Prigioni.........as an asst coach

Postby Don Che » February 14, 2018, 3:50 pm

NYGM wrote:Yes Tao..Second year..

Hopefully we can expect our rookies to produce before 23 years old... Just like KP is doing..


exactly that

when players played 3 or 4 years....usually they played eh as rookies and really made huge strides sophmore year

but now that we have had this era of freshmans ....for some of these guys...it may take time and patience from the squad to coach them up to get tho their potential. bad teams tho..always get talent that isnt compatiable with the young talent they have. theyll take a 19 year old...draft another guy at his position...then pay for a veteran to come in when he's 22...hes buried and seen as an after thought by the time hes 24.

if you take a lottery pick...i personally would pick work ethic/tools/coachability and give that asset time to work it out for 3 years maybe 4 ..before i consider giving up on the asset. Unless a franchise player comes in at that position...id let my coaches work.
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Re: Knicks want to bring back Prigioni.........as an asst coach

Postby H20Knick » February 14, 2018, 4:30 pm

then i don't want to hear a single peep about "we need to try to win games so KP doesn't leave" when you draft the rawest point guard in the draft and say he needs 4 years to be ready. I don't know any team that drafted a 2017 lottery point guard that has had to put a "wait a 3-4 years" disclaimer on their pick, much less bring in two other prospect PGs at the same time. Maybe Fultz, but theres something even weirder going on with that situation.

Either way, on topic, prigioni isn't the guy to expedite the correction of frank's biggest weakness

if we go back to the KP draft, the book has been closed on everyone besides maybe DeAngelo Russell. Towns is the best player in the class by a pretty decent margin. KP is number 2.

Russell is solid but may become better than solid.... but he was traded after year 2

Okafor isn't good. He was already benched halfway through his second year and he would've been traded before this past offseason if anyone had been willing to make a deal for him.

Herzonja... not good. The Magic signed Simmons to take the SF spot that they thought they filled with the draft.

WCS... he was a senior coming out and no one really thought he'd be much of an impact player at the nba level. He's a serviceable big but that's about it. He's not turning into DeAndre Jordan anytime soon

Mudiay... basically given every opportunity to be great... and they quickly realized it wasn't going to work and drafted his replacement... who is actually good. Then they trade Mudiay to the Knicks for doug mcdoodoo

Stanley Johnson.. another disappointment. He still hasnt broken 38% FG for a season lol

Justise Winslow... another bust. he, like Johnson, was worse last year than this year, but they were also worse last year than their rookie seasons. They're basically playing like their rookie years again and thats not great.

Frank the Tank... another senior who never looked like he'd be a big time impact C, but who is a serviceable big. Andre Drummond he is not.

Myles Turner... a guy who surprised some with how well he played as a rookie... then surprised even more people with how well he played as a sophmore. He's solid this year but not blowing up like that organization thought he would.


So really, if you look at the top 10 picks, the only guys who looked good at year 3 are the same guys that looked good at year 1. And a lot of the guys who werent good in year 1 or year 2 were replaced by draft or traded already. Everyone acts like impatient knicks fans are just reactionary and impatient, but most big time players dont need 4 years to reveal themselves as impact players. There are exceptions to that obviously, but if you're betting on who is going to be good in year 5, youd start with putting your money on who was good in year 1. All i'm saying is that I have been given zero reason so far to believe in Frank as the future PG of this team (although future SG maybe), and i've been given zero reason (because negative reasons isn't a thing) to believe in Mudiay as the future PG of this team. Could it happen? Sure. Do I have a reason to believe in it? No. So why would I believe in it? Because I don't have a choice? No. There's always a choice. Ask the team that traded you Mudiay for doug mcdernot.
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Re: Knicks want to bring back Prigioni.........as an asst coach

Postby taowave » February 14, 2018, 5:29 pm

Great point.. Mudiay is a cheap bet,but don't think for one moment the odds of him being a quality PG are in his favor.

And the fact that Mudiay was brought in is not a ringing endorsement for Frank.

Anything can happen,but the odds are against us



H20Knick wrote: All i'm saying is that I have been given zero reason so far to believe in Frank as the future PG of this team (although future SG maybe), and i've been given zero reason (because negative reasons isn't a thing) to believe in Mudiay as the future PG of this team. Could it happen? Sure. Do I have a reason to believe in it? No. So why would I believe in it? Because I don't have a choice? No. There's always a choice. Ask the team that traded you Mudiay for doug mcdernot.
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Re: Knicks want to bring back Prigioni.........as an asst coach

Postby NYGM » February 14, 2018, 5:37 pm

H20Knick wrote:Herzonja... not good. The Magic signed Simmons to take the SF spot that they thought they filled with the draft.


This kid is looking better and better, he's finnally producing..

A perfect example of a player who needed MORE TIME to develope..

Right now he looks far better than Simmons and with a better ceiling..

This is why we need to be patient..
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Re: Knicks want to bring back Prigioni.........as an asst coach

Postby Don Che » February 15, 2018, 11:21 am

you have been on the aspect of losing on purpose....i'm more into adapting to whats happening as they come.

if this team was aplayoff team....i wouldnt hinder things so they wont be for a lottery pick because of KP's mindset

but i think Jeff/Perry/Mills kept it 100...he gave this group a chance basically saying "you guys want playoffs..cool go get it"...they werent good enough so now you adapt for the future...which we are going towards(still annoyed with Jeff's rotations at times)

you can assume Pablo doesnt fit...but it doesnt come with real logic...its just you talking to the mirror persuading yourself. I just know he has a high basketball IQ...the rest i have no idea but it doesnt hurt.

Okafor was expendable because Philly has the best center in the conference.....LA went with Lonzo and feel hes the franchise(plus new regime) so DLo is a go...but both of those guys are still solid players and would be college seniors...look at what Kuzma is doing after 4 years....now go look at Kuzma's numbers his freshman year...if he was drafted then..he'd be playing in Isreal by now.

teams that draft in overlapping positions(for non generational players) and give up on talent early are usually the lottery teams. Unfortunately we always traded our picks for the present so we always were lottery in record but not in draft till the last couple years(somewhat)

you call a player not good but i just dont hold that as a beacon of where a player can be. Kawhi Leonard would of been traded by the Kings by now...same with you if you were the GM....but the Spurs dont do that...they win the games they can..acquire the talent they get and actually coach them.

loser organizations like us and some others just trade and pray or they get rid of talent for salary and pray...instead of doing the hard work and coach and invest in talent.
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Re: Knicks want to bring back Prigioni.........as an asst coach

Postby H20Knick » February 15, 2018, 12:42 pm

Don Che wrote:you have been on the aspect of losing on purpose....i'm more into adapting to whats happening as they come.

if this team was aplayoff team....i wouldnt hinder things so they wont be for a lottery pick because of KP's mindset

but i think Jeff/Perry/Mills kept it 100...he gave this group a chance basically saying "you guys want playoffs..cool go get it"...they werent good enough so now you adapt for the future...which we are going towards(still annoyed with Jeff's rotations at times)

you can assume Pablo doesnt fit...but it doesnt come with real logic...its just you talking to the mirror persuading yourself. I just know he has a high basketball IQ...the rest i have no idea but it doesnt hurt.

Okafor was expendable because Philly has the best center in the conference.....LA went with Lonzo and feel hes the franchise(plus new regime) so DLo is a go...but both of those guys are still solid players and would be college seniors...look at what Kuzma is doing after 4 years....now go look at Kuzma's numbers his freshman year...if he was drafted then..he'd be playing in Isreal by now.

teams that draft in overlapping positions(for non generational players) and give up on talent early are usually the lottery teams. Unfortunately we always traded our picks for the present so we always were lottery in record but not in draft till the last couple years(somewhat)

you call a player not good but i just dont hold that as a beacon of where a player can be. Kawhi Leonard would of been traded by the Kings by now...same with you if you were the GM....but the Spurs dont do that...they win the games they can..acquire the talent they get and actually coach them.

loser organizations like us and some others just trade and pray or they get rid of talent for salary and pray...instead of doing the hard work and coach and invest in talent.


Kyle Kuzma was smart enough to not go pro. Frank Ntilikina should've stayed overseas if he wasn't ready. No one forced him to go pro. No one forced us to take an 18 year old with the 8th pick in the draft. Maybe 4 years from now he'll be great. That's a gamble im willing to take for the right deal. Because there's just as good of a chance that he doesn't. There are a whole lot more guys who were 5/3/2 players as rookies and out of the league 4 years later than there are guys who were 5/3/2 players as rookies and kawhi leonard later.

Who knows what Kawhi would've looked like as a rookie on a team that didn't have 3 HOFers on it. Either way, the spurs gave up on a solid 3rd year george hill for a guy picked 15th in the draft. The exact type of move that I advocate and you don't.
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Re: Knicks want to bring back Prigioni.........as an asst coach

Postby Don Che » February 15, 2018, 1:21 pm

Well look at that spurs team make up at that time.


Tony was prime time...Hill was deemed to be his back up till forever...he was taken 26th in the draft...fact he was in the rotation 3 years later it shows the Spurs did their job.

My idea of investments are guys in the lottery or mid...but more lottery level talent. Regardless Pop said they liked Kawhi from the beginning and knew they were taking him so....if i have a prime Tony Parker i dont see an issue trading the 26th pick for the 15th..that makes perfect sense to me because they ultimately raised the 26th picks value.

Look at what the Spurs got for coaching up George Hill
Look at what Denver got for not coaching up Mudiay


thats my main point...you need to be able to coach your talent on a upward trajectory. Giving up on them on the down hill is what loser teams do. From your posts idt any rookie outside of the all time greats would stay on your team...you'd trade all of them and then wonder why you lose every year.

I admit...Spurs got lucky..if Robinson gets hurt the year after the Spurs would of taken Oluwakandi with the 1st pick and would deal with his lazy a$$. At the same time every move done after getting an all time generational talent was top notch scouting and coaching across the board. The drafted Tony/Manu and didnt hinder their development and put them in positions to succeed.

I got killed for calling Tim a bench player...can you imagine someone saying that about Manu back in the day? guy was a pure menace...and Pop still knew what was best for the team. And no..im not saying we have ANYONE on Duncans level..but i do think we have talent to work with. I'd be patient and let our coach do their jobs and not alter the regime too much. If we fire Jeff......I better see Messina or Blatt.....thats it...anyone else I'd rather just keep Jeff.
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Re: Knicks want to bring back Prigioni.........as an asst coach

Postby H20Knick » February 15, 2018, 1:35 pm

if we had drafted DSJ, I wouldn't be saying any of this actually


george hill was also 22 as a rookie, coming off 22 ppg his senior year at college. Mudiay, just like Frank, was the youngest kid in his draft class and didn't do much professionally prior to getting drafted to the best league in the world. The Spurs wouldn't have drafted either of them with a lottery pick to begin with. Those are the types of players they get deep in the 1st round. "Projects".
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Re: Knicks want to bring back Prigioni.........as an asst coach

Postby Don Che » February 15, 2018, 1:40 pm

only way to fix this...is everyone playing 3-4 years in college which I'd love since I like college basketball.


from a coaching/scouting pov that is the easiest way to get things done. by the time a player is 25 you know EVERYTHING you need to know.


but since they are drafting kids.....organizations ruin kids as many kids that ruin themselves.

DSJ is cool but...ive seen too many guards just like him never win anything....Donovan Mitchell...is my guy..i wish Phil had more guts than I did and took him. Even tho I think the Jazz was PERFECT for him also.

they cultivate talent...they have Rubio for easy shots(second rookie that he's helped)..Gobert as a back line of the defense and their coaching staff has been doing great work over the years.
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Re: Knicks want to bring back Prigioni.........as an asst coach

Postby H20Knick » February 15, 2018, 1:49 pm

There are 10 players in NBA history who were in their teens as rookies, played at least 15 minutes, and scored less than 6 ppg.

Bismack Biyombo - worse his sophmore year
Dante Exum - missed 2nd season due to injury, missing his 4th season due to injury
Frank Ntilikina
Markelle Fultz
Trevor Ariza - worse as a sophmore, but good in his 5th season on his 3rd NBA team
Aaron Gordon - good now
Derrick Jones - worse as a sophmore
Nikoloz Tskitishvilli - worse as a sophmore
Georgios Papagiannis - worse as a sophmore
Tyus Jones - worse as a sophmore


so its aaron gordon. that's it. that's the only guy who was this limited as a rookie and then turned out to be good.
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Re: Knicks want to bring back Prigioni.........as an asst coach

Postby H20Knick » February 15, 2018, 1:55 pm

Don Che wrote:only way to fix this...is everyone playing 3-4 years in college which I'd love since I like college basketball.


from a coaching/scouting pov that is the easiest way to get things done. by the time a player is 25 you know EVERYTHING you need to know.


but since they are drafting kids.....organizations ruin kids as many kids that ruin themselves.

DSJ is cool but...ive seen too many guards just like him never win anything....Donovan Mitchell...is my guy..i wish Phil had more guts than I did and took him. Even tho I think the Jazz was PERFECT for him also.

they cultivate talent...they have Rubio for easy shots(second rookie that he's helped)..Gobert as a back line of the defense and their coaching staff has been doing great work over the years.



well, donovon mitchell is mudiay's age now. He only stayed an extra year. If any of our point guards were playing like Mitchell, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

im just saying you don't have to make excuses for everyone, Don. I don't think Donovan or Dennis or even Kristaps went into their rookie season thinking they could just be super passive and take their time and their organizations would coddle them and bring them along gradually and bring in guys at their position to protect them from reality. It's even more interesting because Mudiay was thrown into the fire with the ultimate green light and a damn good supporting cast and he didnt seize the opportunity. The only way to break the cycle of guys coming into the league too soon is to 1) not draft them with lottery picks and 2) if you draft them like lottery picks, treat them like they're not just 18 years old. If youre a lottery pick, you're probably on a shitty team, so you should get 25+ mpg and a lot of freedom to be aggressive and effective. If you can't do that, your playing time gets cut, the team brings in replacements, youre traded by year 4, and youre out of the league by year 6. Let it serve as an example to every 18 year old from outside of the ncaa system that thinks they're ready to play in the NBA when they're fresh out of China or a U19 league
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Re: Knicks want to bring back Prigioni.........as an asst coach

Postby Don Che » February 15, 2018, 3:21 pm

H20Knick wrote:There are 10 players in NBA history who were in their teens as rookies, played at least 15 minutes, and scored less than 6 ppg.

Bismack Biyombo - worse his sophmore year
Dante Exum - missed 2nd season due to injury, missing his 4th season due to injury
Frank Ntilikina
Markelle Fultz
Trevor Ariza - worse as a sophmore, but good in his 5th season on his 3rd NBA team
Aaron Gordon - good now
Derrick Jones - worse as a sophmore
Nikoloz Tskitishvilli - worse as a sophmore
Georgios Papagiannis - worse as a sophmore
Tyus Jones - worse as a sophmore


so its aaron gordon. that's it. that's the only guy who was this limited as a rookie and then turned out to be good.


actually love this list because i disliked all theses guys as prospects..except Fultz, Exum and Frank..the rest of these guys to me...were scrubs to begin with.

I like Exum....injuries have hindered him.

i actually wasnt against Mudiay his rookie year...had a solid year. I would prefer Frank starting and just doing him but i also think the early win totals from this team kind of bamboozled the team into thinkin they are a palyoff team.

start Frank next week and i think just off time his numbers would go up. But off watching them all prior to the NBA...Frank/Fultz/Exum are going to be solid...the rest i was never a fan of including Aaron.

if players dont make strides in their game with time/opporutnity ill blame the player but if its a group of players i blame the coaching staff. I'm good with giving Frank and Mudiay a shot.

if Frank is worse next year....then its a concern...i just dont see that happening
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Re: Knicks want to bring back Prigioni.........as an asst coach

Postby Nononsense » February 15, 2018, 3:57 pm

If I were to predict, I'd guess Hornacek gone this summer with Jason Kidd as his replacement and Pablo as his assistant.
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Re: Knicks want to bring back Prigioni.........as an asst coach

Postby Don Che » February 15, 2018, 4:15 pm

HAHAHA we would flip
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Re: Knicks want to bring back Prigioni.........as an asst coach

Postby taowave » February 15, 2018, 4:22 pm

Kind of think Jackson may be the guy


Don Che wrote:HAHAHA we would flip
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