Frank Ntilikina will be a perennial all-star

[nazrmohamed]

The only thing I'll say to your argument Tao is.............those 2 guys aren't caretaker PGs like nazr is stating.

Pass-first PGs, they indeed are.

But both Rondo and Rubio enjoy pounding the rock and attacking the rim to set up their teammates for shot, COMPLETELY DIFFERENT playing-style from the "caretaker PG" that nazr is referring to.

Caretaker PGs in a sense are basically "3&D guards" that just happen to dribble the ball up the floor and "set up the offense." There only form of offense is basically "off-ball," they cut from down screens and spot-up off of dribble-penetration from other wing players/guards AND/or double-teams in the post.

That being said, this is where I end that clarification..........because you are valid in everything else of your argument, Tao.

Frank has to show great improvements on the offensive end to "GAIN RESPECT FROM TEAM DEFENSES" when he is trying to set up the offense for everyone else, OTHERWISE Frank can't function as a STARTING PG in the NBA if he doesn't have a modest field goal percentage on the floor.

You get it. And that's why I talked about shooting. As you said there's a difference between Rondo and a player in Frank's skillset. Frank's line of skillset is typically great at throwing the ball into the post, dribbling it across Halfcourt and getting it to a Jordan/Kobe/Lebron. But again, you can't be scared to shoot, in fact you better be lights out cause we all know you ain't creating offense off the dribble.

In either case work on everything Frank. Just work cause that defense is game changing but he'll be telling people about it on the streets of Cannes if he don't get his shit together.

[taowave]

If Pops can give Dejounte Murray a shot,then there's hope for Frankie..

Admittedly,he is a horrible offensive specimen..

[NewlyKnicked]

I like your take on frank, Naz. He’s obviously not the scoring pg some of us dream of, but there are different ways to contribute. He needs to show improvement in aggressiveness, scoring, %FG and assists (in that order) tho, but I think he’ll do just that if trusted with enough pt

[shakespeare]

but he'll be telling people about it on the streets of Cannes if he don't get his shit together.

I see what you did there.

[shakespeare]

Not everyone has to be Russel westbrook

Agreed. There were point guards taken at no. 1 in NBA Drafts that aren’t Westbrook. So no reasonable human being should expect Ntili at 9th to be “the next Russell Westbrook.”

I could be wrong, but I think Ntili’s detractors are looking for him to play with passion. Which goes back to a New York Times article posted awhile ago where Frank talked about needing to play the game with passion, like Westbrook. I googled and couldn’t find the read but it was really good.

It’s somewhere in this thread.

[shakespeare]

Tao. Interesting you say that about Westbrook. I once posted an article regarding Ntili where he spoke of wanting to play the game with the same confidence and aggressiveness ala Westbrook. While I'm not sure that's possible, Russell has mad athletic ability and payback in his heart, it's good to hear Ntili has thoughts.

Here's the article https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/01/04/s ... oogle.com/

Here it is.

[StevoStarks]

No they won't. They simply will fail to be the star players of your team. Or appreciated as such. Last I checked Patrick Beverly has been in the league for the last 5 yrs doing just fine. And in 5,4,3,2,1 somebody will say he's played next to Harden.

Well wtf do you think I'm trying to build here folks. Why do you want that top 5 pick H20, shakes. For those Harden caliber players.

But not just him, there are definitely less out there but they exist. George Hill beat the flying shit out of us in 2015...or at least he was on the team that did. Chalmers has rings.

But just outta that group I think Dereck would've. He was a solid 3pt shooter

[Don Che]

6'6 point guards that defend and pass to the open man usually end up with more rings than the dynamic 6'2 score first ones.

we have 2 guys that are score first and second and scared to pass 3rd.

I'm much more confident that KP and Knox can be 20 point scorers and Mario who I think will drop 16-19 ppg if he gets 30+ minutes. even throw in Tim who is a score first and second guy than any of those guys getting over 6 assists a night

when you have guys like that...you need passers to keep the game flowing. Mario can dish out 5 assists possibly. but KP and Knox havent shown the ability to create for others...nor defend the perimeter

and this is where Frank enters. tbh I think we need more passers actually which is why him and mudiay have a chance...also getting a passers in the frontline would do wonders...like a prime Noah or current Dray with all these scorers would be SICK
anyway back to Frank

only qualms I have is him taking and making good shots. when hes open he has to knock everyone down...he has to shoot 45% from the field and 37% from 3 ...I'm looking at those numbers...and his assists to turnover ratio to evaluate his offense next year. if hes scoring 13ppg or 18ppg isnt much of a concern to me.

hes our chalmers/ron harper/Beverly type but with playmaking ability.

[taowave]

It's what I keep on saying..We know he can play D,but can he take charge and facilitate...

It's not a given ..

[Don Che]

he is a player that prefers to pass than score and attempts to orchestrate which im good with....but i dont see him being a general either.

Andre miller didnt wanna scorebut he commanded the whole game and i do think Frank has more offensive chops but just showing the difference btwn a facilitator and a general.

Billups was a general but not a traditional facilitator

[taowave]

Andre put up apx 15 per in his first 10 years,while averaging close to 8 apg..

Do you see Burke as a floor general?

he is a player that prefers to pass than score and attempts to orchestrate which im good with....but i dont see him being a general either.

Andre miller didnt wanna scorebut he commanded the whole game and i do think Frank has more offensive chops but just showing the difference btwn a facilitator and a general.

Billups was a general but not a traditional facilitator

[Don Che]

i wouldnt put him in that category...he needs the ball to be effective.

Burke is 60% of what A.I used to do. If either of those guys were asked to be generals they wouldnt be maximized really for what they individually do.

Both get there assists no doubt but its based off them scoring or atleast trying to at all times.

and by no means is this a bad thing...its great if its put in the right situation.

i just know KP/Knox are the main 2 guys right now....even Tim is ahead on the pecking order in this franchise(which is retarded but investments will usually supersede with the regime that acquires them) and I'd take Burke over Tim w/o any hesitation.

we currently dont have a general....Frank/Mudiay/Burke will battle it out....Burke as a firepower off the bench and set him into the game to score is an incredible asset.

If Mudiay doesnt become a 18/8 type guy..he'll be out the NBA...he is either a star or back to China.

Frank can be a facilitator/general type....can also be a Avery Bradley type...theres a lot of ways to use 6'6 defenders with a long wingspan and some passing ability in today's NBA.

i actually think the main thing thats gonna make this year hard to watch is being patient till its all figured out

[StevoStarks]

It's what I keep on saying..We know he can play D,but can he take charge and facilitate...

It's not a given ..

No it's not. And it's not not a given either .

That's what we are ALL waiting to see this year. Will he improve on the items that we have discussed for 26 pages. We are all in agreement on what those are. Simply can he run the offense, can he make the pass setting up his teammates and can he hit the open shots at a decent % when given the opportunity to.

That's it. We can close this thread until the season starts because nothing will change or answer those questions until we play some games.

[H20Knick]

6'6 point guards that defend and pass to the open man usually end up with more rings than the dynamic 6'2 score first ones.

historically maybe, but kyrie and steph have changed that a bit. You could even include Tony Parker in that list. The offensively limited PGs guys that won championships before that were usually pigging off some otherworldly ball dominant SG/SF (Chalmers-Wade/Lebron, Fisher-Kobe, Harper-Jordan) that the Knicks do not, and will not ever have unless we tank the hell out of next year and RJ Barrett becomes the next goat. The only pass-first pg that won a title without playing next to a ball dominant stud in the last 15 years is jason kidd, who is legit one of the greatest PGs of all time.

we have 2 guys that are score first and second and scared to pass 3rd.

I'm much more confident that KP and Knox can be 20 point scorers and Mario who I think will drop 16-19 ppg if he gets 30+ minutes. even throw in Tim who is a score first and second guy than any of those guys getting over 6 assists a night

when you have guys like that...you need passers to keep the game flowing. Mario can dish out 5 assists possibly. but KP and Knox havent shown the ability to create for others...nor defend the perimeter.

and this is where Frank enters. tbh I think we need more passers actually which is why him and mudiay have a chance...also getting a passers in the frontline would do wonders...like a prime Noah or current Dray with all these scorers would be SICK

just like there is a difference between guys that are score-first and guys that are scorers (i.e. jr smith vs kevin durant), there are guys that are pass-first and guys that are passers (mario chalmers vs chris paul). Frank isn't a passer. He has never been a passer at any level. He just brings the ball up court and gives it up. He may create 2-3 easy looks for his teammates in a game tops. I dont know that any of the "scorers" you listed there are gifted enough with the ball in their hands to maximize their talents with a Frank type PG. Frank to me is a whole lot like Eric Snow. Which was fine, because they had Allen Iverson who had the ball 90% of the time. We don't have that. Tim Hardaway JR is not that. Kevin Knox/KP are too big and slow and not good enough ball handlers for that. Same goes for Mario.

only qualms I have is him taking and making good shots. when hes open he has to knock everyone down...he has to shoot 45% from the field and 37% from 3 ...I'm looking at those numbers...and his assists to turnover ratio to evaluate his offense next year. if hes scoring 13ppg or 18ppg isnt much of a concern to me.

I agree. If he's at a good percentage, I don't need him to do 18ppg. My dream for him would be 12p/8a. If he did that and played lockdown defense, he'd be an A+ player in my book.

hes our chalmers/ron harper/Beverly type but with playmaking ability.

We've had this argument before, but I still don't understand how this notion of Frank's great playmaking ability came to be. In the 60 international games he played in 16-17, he averaged 1.7 assists in 19 minutes of basketball. Last year, Frank's per36 assist totals (5.3) would put him below patrick beverley's rookie 5.9, below mario chalmers's rookie 5.5. He didn't even manage a 2:1 assist to turnover ratio.

If youre going to make me a frank fan, that's fine. Because I used to like Chris Childs. Do I love the idea of having an offensively limited PG? No. But he's a better defender than I expected and so at least he excels at something. I'm just saying that there's no precedent for championship pg that is offensively chris duhon playing next to an average at best shooting guard. And i'm being generous with the Chris Duhon thing because he did 6.6 ap36 and had over a 3:1 assist to turnover ratio.

Let's look at the last 30 years of champions!
2018: Warriors: Steph Curry - scorer, likely ends up as 1st ballot HOF
2017: Warriors: Steph Curry - scorer, likely ends up as 1st ballot HOF
2016: Cavs: Kyrie Irving - scorer, likely HOF bound if he doesn't get injured all the time
2015: Warriors: Steph Curry - scorer, likely ends up as 1st ballot HOF
2014: Spurs: Tony Parker- scorer, former finals MVP, likely ends up as 1st ballot HOF
2013: Heat: Chalmers, played next to Wade (likely 1st ballot HOF) and Lebron (likely 1st ballot HOF)
2012: Heat: Chalmers, played next to Wade (likely 1st ballot HOF) and Lebron (likely 1st ballot HOF)
2011: Mavericks: Kidd... top 10 all time PG
2010: Lakers: Fisher, played next to Kobe (likely 1st ballot HOF)
2009: Lakers: Fisher, played next to Kobe (likely 1st ballot HOF)
2008: Celtics: Rondo, played next to Allen (likely 1st ballot HOF) and Pierce (likely 1st ballot HOF)
2007: Spurs: Tony Parker - scorer, finals MVP, likely ends up as 1st ballot HOF
2006: Heat: Jason Willliams, played next to Wade (Finals MVP, likely 1st ballot HOF)
2005: Spurs: Tony Parker - scorer, future finals MVP, likely ends up as 1st ballot HOF
2004: Pistons: Chauncey Billups - scorer, finals MVP, he was 0.4 ppg away from leading all pistons scorers in this series, may end up only finals MVP out of HOF)
2002: Lakers: Lindsay Hunter, played next to Kobe (likely 1st ballot HOF)
2001: Lakers: Ron Harper, played next to Kobe (likely 1st ballot HOF)
2000: Lakers: Ron Harper, played next to Kobe (likely 1st ballot HOF)
1999: Spurs: Avery Johnson... I don't want to talk about this.
1998: Bulls: Ron Harper, played next to Jordan (1st ballot HOF)
1997: Bulls: Ron Harper, played next to Jordan (1st ballot HOF)
1996: Bulls: Ron Harper, played next to Jordan (1st ballot HOF)
1995: Rockets: Kenny Smith, played next to Drexler (1st ballot HOF)
1994: Rockets: Kenny Smith... I don't want to talk about this either. Why is this a recurring theme?
1993: Bulls: BJ Armstrong, played next to Jordan (1st ballot HOF)
1992: Bulls: John Paxson, played next to Jordan (1st ballot HOF)
1991: Bulls: John Paxson, played next to Jordan (1st ballot HOF)
1990: Pistons: Isiah Thomas - scorer, finals MVP, 1st ballot HOF
1989: Pistons: Isiah Thomas - scorer, future finals MVP, 1st ballot HOF
1988: Lakers: Magic Johnson - scorer/passer/magician, finals MVP, 1st ballot HOF

Considering that no one important on the knicks roster was alive before this, I'm pretty sure that previous styles of basketball are irrelevant to this topic. So we have 3 cases where you had a non-scoring PG and no other hall of fame ball dominant guard/wing to play with. THREE in thirty years and two of them came against the knicks (maybe we would've won with someone better than Charlie Ward and Derek Harper playing PG). In all 3 cases, a positional top 10 all time player (Kidd, Duncan, Hakeem) was on the winning team.

So if you love Frank, then Tim Hardaway Jr is the problem you have to solve
If you love defense, then Tim Hardaway Jr is the problem you have to solve
If you just don't feel like arguing with Don and NewlyKnicked in every thread, then Tim Haradaway Jr is the problem you have to solve.

But a Frank/Tim backcourt isn't going to cut it. Until I see someone drafted or traded here that replaces Tim Hardaway Jr with someone with the potential to join the elite SGs on this list, im going to need more out of Frank than the next Chalmers/Fisher/Harper.

[DerekHarper]

nice post H2O, always freaking the best analysis. Long time brother!

[shakespeare]

Rare form, H20.

But I’ll never understand your seemingly deep, dark hatred of THJ.

Granted, Allan Houston was a much better long ball shooter. But the same argument against THJ can be made against Houston. Scorer, no rebounding, playmaking, defense, ridiculous contract.

[H20Knick]

Rare form, H20.

But I’ll never understand your seemingly deep, dark hatred of THJ.

Granted, Allan Houston was a much better long ball shooter. But the same argument against THJ can be made against Houston. Scorer, no rebounding, playmaking, defense, ridiculous contract.

You see, Shakes. You of alllll people should understand this.

Yes, truly; for, look you, the sins of the father are to be laid upon the children; therefore, I promise you, I fear you. I was always plain with you, and so now I speak my agitation of the matter: therefore be of good cheer; for, truly, I think you are damned. There is but one hope in it that can do you any good, and that is but a kind of bastard hope neither.

To see Tim Hardaway's little arrogant prick of a spawn prance shimmy around like he's steph curry when he is not great by pro standards at any aspect of basketball, its revolting. He's not a great shooter. He's not a great finisher. He's not a great defender. He's not a great ball handler. He's the definition of average. A tank commander does not wait 30 years to build a team that has to accommodate an average shooting guard. It kills my soul. I have absolutely no use for him beyond 6th man. If he were someone else, i'd just trust the process and wait til he gets usurped and becomes 6th man, but he's the actual firstborn son of tim hardaway, so if we could trade him tomorrow for a stale roll of smartees, id celebrate.

[Don Che]

I really dont see us disagreeing on a lot there....the only way Frank can survive on a championship level is if someone else helps or mainly takes on being the main playmaker.

Frank is more of a playmaker than scorer ....and from his game I see him more of a playmaker than Beverly and Mario and maybe
over old Ron Harper is and you can win rings with those guys.....Frank was a better defender at 20 than those guys were...idt they were in the NBA till they were 22.

2 of Mario/Knox/KP will have to end up being top 10 at their position. if not you hit the draft with a high pick. and hope you land the next beast.

I wont address your Tim area...I've said my piece. and Houston wasnt a player u can win it all with sadly esp st the salary he had and reasons you stated and he was 3x the player tim is.

I'm just waiting to see how focused Mario is and can he defend the 2 here...6'8 athletic can shoot it pass it ...has the same tools as many great SG's.

curry is really the main one I dont count on your list purely because of the team hes on. Tony Parker I'll give 100% tho and kyrie has 1....and played with the goat.

for us to be champions some of these players we have under 22....will have to be great..I'm aware of that and hoping that's how it goes. and all I can say is we have 3 guys with special tools for their positions and kp and Knox want to be great and have shown good work ethics...kp is a 22 y/o all star and I dont think he scratched the surface. I'm hoping for the best

[NYGM]

Let Frank be the best player he can be..

He's not like every other 6'2 scoring PG.. He's 6'6 - 6'7 (bigger than THJ)..

He needs to use his size and shoot over those little guard..

His game would be different to most scoring PG's..

[rebound]

frank will be playing for france in the fiba tournament this september.