Don Che wrote:6'6 point guards that defend and pass to the open man usually end up with more rings than the dynamic 6'2 score first ones.
historically maybe, but kyrie and steph have changed that a bit. You could even include Tony Parker in that list. The offensively limited PGs guys that won championships before that were usually pigging off some otherworldly ball dominant SG/SF (Chalmers-Wade/Lebron, Fisher-Kobe, Harper-Jordan) that the Knicks do not, and will not ever have unless we tank the hell out of next year and RJ Barrett becomes the next goat. The only pass-first pg that won a title without playing next to a ball dominant stud in the last 15 years is jason kidd, who is legit one of the greatest PGs of all time.
we have 2 guys that are score first and second and scared to pass 3rd.
I'm much more confident that KP and Knox can be 20 point scorers and Mario who I think will drop 16-19 ppg if he gets 30+ minutes. even throw in Tim who is a score first and second guy than any of those guys getting over 6 assists a night
when you have guys like that...you need passers to keep the game flowing. Mario can dish out 5 assists possibly. but KP and Knox havent shown the ability to create for others...nor defend the perimeter.
and this is where Frank enters. tbh I think we need more passers actually which is why him and mudiay have a chance...also getting a passers in the frontline would do wonders...like a prime Noah or current Dray with all these scorers would be SICK
just like there is a difference between guys that are score-first and guys that are scorers (i.e. jr smith vs kevin durant), there are guys that are pass-first and guys that are passers (mario chalmers vs chris paul). Frank isn't a passer. He has never been a passer at any level. He just brings the ball up court and gives it up. He may create 2-3 easy looks for his teammates in a game tops. I dont know that any of the "scorers" you listed there are gifted enough with the ball in their hands to maximize their talents with a Frank type PG. Frank to me is a whole lot like Eric Snow. Which was fine, because they had Allen Iverson who had the ball 90% of the time. We don't have that. Tim Hardaway JR is not that. Kevin Knox/KP are too big and slow and not good enough ball handlers for that. Same goes for Mario.
only qualms I have is him taking and making good shots. when hes open he has to knock everyone down...he has to shoot 45% from the field and 37% from 3 ...I'm looking at those numbers...and his assists to turnover ratio to evaluate his offense next year. if hes scoring 13ppg or 18ppg isnt much of a concern to me.
I agree. If he's at a good percentage, I don't need him to do 18ppg. My dream for him would be 12p/8a. If he did that and played lockdown defense, he'd be an A+ player in my book.
hes our chalmers/ron harper/Beverly type but with playmaking ability.
We've had this argument before, but I still don't understand how this notion of Frank's great playmaking ability came to be. In the 60 international games he played in 16-17, he averaged 1.7 assists in 19 minutes of basketball. Last year, Frank's per36 assist totals (5.3) would put him below patrick beverley's rookie 5.9, below mario chalmers's rookie 5.5. He didn't even manage a 2:1 assist to turnover ratio.
If youre going to make me a frank fan, that's fine. Because I used to like Chris Childs. Do I love the idea of having an offensively limited PG? No. But he's a better defender than I expected and so at least he excels at something. I'm just saying that there's no precedent for championship pg that is offensively chris duhon playing next to an average at best shooting guard. And i'm being generous with the Chris Duhon thing because he did 6.6 ap36 and had over a 3:1 assist to turnover ratio.
Let's look at the last 30 years of champions!
2018: Warriors:
Steph Curry - scorer, likely ends up as 1st ballot HOF
2017: Warriors:
Steph Curry - scorer, likely ends up as 1st ballot HOF
2016: Cavs:
Kyrie Irving - scorer, likely HOF bound if he doesn't get injured all the time
2015: Warriors:
Steph Curry - scorer, likely ends up as 1st ballot HOF
2014: Spurs:
Tony Parker- scorer, former finals MVP, likely ends up as 1st ballot HOF
2013: Heat:
Chalmers, played next to
Wade (likely 1st ballot HOF) and
Lebron (likely 1st ballot HOF)
2012: Heat:
Chalmers, played next to
Wade (likely 1st ballot HOF) and
Lebron (likely 1st ballot HOF)
2011: Mavericks: Kidd... top 10 all time PG2010: Lakers:
Fisher, played next to
Kobe (likely 1st ballot HOF)
2009: Lakers:
Fisher, played next to
Kobe (likely 1st ballot HOF)
2008: Celtics:
Rondo, played next to
Allen (likely 1st ballot HOF) and
Pierce (likely 1st ballot HOF)
2007: Spurs:
Tony Parker - scorer, finals MVP, likely ends up as 1st ballot HOF
2006: Heat:
Jason Willliams, played next to
Wade (Finals MVP, likely 1st ballot HOF)
2005: Spurs:
Tony Parker - scorer, future finals MVP, likely ends up as 1st ballot HOF
2004: Pistons:
Chauncey Billups - scorer, finals MVP, he was 0.4 ppg away from leading all pistons scorers in this series, may end up only finals MVP out of HOF)
2002: Lakers:
Lindsay Hunter, played next to
Kobe (likely 1st ballot HOF)
2001: Lakers:
Ron Harper, played next to
Kobe (likely 1st ballot HOF)
2000: Lakers:
Ron Harper, played next to
Kobe (likely 1st ballot HOF)
1999: Spurs: Avery Johnson... I don't want to talk about this. 1998: Bulls:
Ron Harper, played next to
Jordan (1st ballot HOF)
1997: Bulls:
Ron Harper, played next to
Jordan (1st ballot HOF)
1996: Bulls:
Ron Harper, played next to
Jordan (1st ballot HOF)
1995: Rockets:
Kenny Smith, played next to
Drexler (1st ballot HOF)
1994: Rockets: Kenny Smith... I don't want to talk about this either. Why is this a recurring theme?1993: Bulls:
BJ Armstrong, played next to
Jordan (1st ballot HOF)
1992: Bulls:
John Paxson, played next to
Jordan (1st ballot HOF)
1991: Bulls:
John Paxson, played next to
Jordan (1st ballot HOF)
1990: Pistons:
Isiah Thomas - scorer, finals MVP, 1st ballot HOF
1989: Pistons:
Isiah Thomas - scorer, future finals MVP, 1st ballot HOF
1988: Lakers:
Magic Johnson - scorer/passer/magician, finals MVP, 1st ballot HOF
Considering that no one important on the knicks roster was alive before this, I'm pretty sure that previous styles of basketball are irrelevant to this topic. So we have 3 cases where you had a non-scoring PG and no other hall of fame ball dominant guard/wing to play with. THREE in thirty years and two of them came against the knicks (maybe we would've won with someone better than Charlie Ward and Derek Harper playing PG). In all 3 cases, a positional top 10 all time player (Kidd, Duncan, Hakeem) was on the winning team. So if you love Frank, then Tim Hardaway Jr is the problem you have to solve
If you love defense, then Tim Hardaway Jr is the problem you have to solve
If you just don't feel like arguing with Don and NewlyKnicked in every thread, then Tim Haradaway Jr is the problem you have to solve.
But a Frank/Tim backcourt isn't going to cut it. Until I see someone drafted or traded here that replaces Tim Hardaway Jr with someone with the potential to join the elite SGs on this list, im going to need more out of Frank than the next Chalmers/Fisher/Harper.
Fort Knox. Hard Knox. Knock Knox. It doesn't matter. Hall of Fame in 20.
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