It's time to start questioning Perry

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Re: It's time to start questioning Perry

Postby spree#8 » February 6, 2018, 3:08 pm

StevoStarks wrote:Mitchell is not a PG. Does that discredit that entire article?


The whole article is shit, so pick anything you want.
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Re: It's time to start questioning Perry

Postby taowave » February 6, 2018, 3:40 pm

Ummmm..neither is Frank :)

And Tim is looking like......Tim




StevoStarks wrote:Mitchell is not a PG. Does that discredit that entire article?
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Re: It's time to start questioning Perry

Postby Don Che » February 6, 2018, 4:42 pm

a lot of things are flawed in that article but to keep it simple

"frank STILL isnt ready to start yet" ....did he turn 30 or am i drinking to much again? How many 19 year olds are starting in the NBA right now? How many of them are foreigners? How many of them are PGs?

this idea that we are being bad at a rebuild is stupid..if anything i'd respect that opinion if we were in the actual playoffs lol...rebuilding and getting a lottery pick is exactly the point...the best rookie drafted last year was taken 13th..why are so worried?

and my personal favorite...Tim and KP struggling to carry Melo's baton....um riddle me this batman how many games did we win WITH Melo/KP/Rose last year? and what is our projection now? if anything we just proved that with or without Melo..we basically at the same exact spot we were last year...minus the negative energy and distractions

i said before the year began that this roster isnt a playoff roster...and if Tim/KP/Willy/Frank lead us to the same exact win total as Melo/Rose/KP..guess what?...its a successful year. So far the only thing that sucks is that Frank isnt starting and Willy isnt playing but the sentiment is the same.

bad article..you cant be a lottery team with your pick and be called bad at rebuilding.

if we can trade a center for a young wing or a frontcourt guy that can guard everywhere then we are officially great at rebuilding.
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Re: It's time to start questioning Perry

Postby taowave » February 6, 2018, 5:11 pm

Don, Frank looks like doo doo half the time.Dude is terrified...

Your 13th pick example is swiss cheese....If you were right,every bottom feeder team would be trading down in the draft and swapping the third pick for the 13th....Cmon...

At least Lonzo takes risks and goes for it... Jarret Allen is 19....The Euro thing is an excuse... Franks is not mentally ready...

As long as Burke plays ALOT, I am good with our process..There is no reason to see Jack having major minutes








Don Che wrote:a lot of things are flawed in that article but to keep it simple

"frank STILL isnt ready to start yet" ....did he turn 30 or am i drinking to much again? How many 19 year olds are starting in the NBA right now? How many of them are foreigners? How many of them are PGs?

this idea that we are being bad at a rebuild is stupid..if anything i'd respect that opinion if we were in the actual playoffs lol...rebuilding and getting a lottery pick is exactly the point...the best rookie drafted last year was taken 13th..why are so worried?

and my personal favorite...Tim and KP struggling to carry Melo's baton....um riddle me this batman how many games did we win WITH Melo/KP/Rose last year? and what is our projection now? if anything we just proved that with or without Melo..we basically at the same exact spot we were last year...minus the negative energy and distractions

i said before the year began that this roster isnt a playoff roster...and if Tim/KP/Willy/Frank lead us to the same exact win total as Melo/Rose/KP..guess what?...its a successful year. So far the only thing that sucks is that Frank isnt starting and Willy isnt playing but the sentiment is the same.

bad article..you cant be a lottery team with your pick and be called bad at rebuilding.

if we can trade a center for a young wing or a frontcourt guy that can guard everywhere then we are officially great at rebuilding.
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Re: It's time to start questioning Perry

Postby Don Che » February 6, 2018, 6:09 pm

my theory is in tact ...if you have a good scouting team..you can get value at the 12th pick..there are plenty of picks in recent memory that were good in those spots

so wait...in one sentence you say he sucks but another mentions Lonzo and Jarret Allen ...who start...crazy long list right? those guys are real game changers right? Neither of these guys...will be the best player in this draft class in 5 years.

hows Josh Jackson doing? Hows Jonathan Issaac doing? Hows Malik Monk doing?

would those teams bash those picks the way you guys bash Frank? last i checked they are all going through bumps and bruises their rookie year...i dont see the next Duncan or Lebron in that class


and that class is better than this years class hence its all about your scouting team. No one thought Donovan would be better than Fultz and Lonzo...literally no one. I personally liked him more but never did i think it would be like this but just off the eye test w/o looking at mocks..i liked what DM brought to the table. Thats what we need to do this year.

Trey Burke went 12/6 his rookie year...not bad actually but he did shoot 38% from the field...and was also 21 years old.

so..if a 21 year old rookie can get better and be 25 years old and come here and get love from you.....how can you not project a 19 year old getting better as his career progresses...are you guys only able to evaluate whats happening today? Plenty of players "not ready" at 19 are now all stars at 27.

how many all stars in 2018 set the league on fire their rookie year?

Listen fellas..i get it...we all been fans here for a long time. I went as far back as his play when he was 15 years old and he turned 2 things that were a complete weakness of his..into a strength by the time he played at 18. he couldnt shoot and couldnt play off the ball....he worked on his game to make those things a positive by the time he was scouted at 18 playing with grown men...he was skinny at 17...going into this year his body made strides to compete at this level. He will take his hits and adjust.


If we are having this convo when he's 25...than by all means thats a logical dispute but nothing about Franks progress tells me that Frank lacks the desire or work ethic.....so putting that into a 6'5 PG with a 7' wingspan....i'll bank on his progress as he gets older. Complaining now is just old guys looking for a reason to complain without objectively looking at history.
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Re: It's time to start questioning Perry

Postby Koopa Troopa » February 6, 2018, 7:45 pm

Knicks dont have a good anything though let alone a good scouting team. Hard to have faith in management when they have no positive credentials. Plus no reason to throw shade on Lonzo or Jarrett Allen or even Smith JR. If you dont see the potential in them but you see potential in Frank.....thats some excellent Kool Aid you are drinking.

And let me know when Frank turns his weakness of being super slow into a strength.

He aint a point guard. Make him a 3 and D 2 guard and theres his true value. He can barely dribble and isnt a great passer so what is the point of him at PG? His wingspan wont help him stop these NBA all star point guards. They walk right by him. At least at the 2 it will be valuable.


how many all stars in 2018 set the league on fire their rookie year?


Probably around 40 percent of them. Westbrook, Durant, LeBron, Anthony Davis, Irving, Wall, Curry, Lillard, Towns.

Yes not everyone is a superstar day one, but they show flashes of brilliance right? Like Giannis, it was obvious he was gonna be great. What have you seen from Frank? I dont get it. And why not talk about how 19 year old french PG Tony Parker wasnt as terrible when you give Frank the excuse of being a foreign 19 year old? Maybe because he actually was a PG, not a SG forced to play the PG spot. And maybe because he was extremely quick and could dribble the ball.

And yeah lets objectively look at history. Name a project point guard that ever succeeded. If he was quick and athletic than sure i'd see the potential, but he isnt.
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Re: It's time to start questioning Perry

Postby taowave » February 6, 2018, 9:26 pm

Don,you are losing it...get a grip :happy:

Top 5 is better than 12..Of course you could get value,but I'll take at KP at 4 over any and all of the 10 bums we have picked higher than 6..

Frank plays like he is scared out of his jock..The guy refuses to penetrate past the top of the key.He may be talented,he may develop,but he lacks gonads..

Don,if you are basing your argument on a relative basis,you already have one foot on a banana peel.

And yes,I evaluate what I see today and Frsnks head needs adjusting,along with his handle..


Don Che wrote:my theory is in tact ...if you have a good scouting team..you can get value at the 12th pick..there are plenty of picks in recent memory that were good in those spots

so wait...in one sentence you say he sucks but another mentions Lonzo and Jarret Allen ...who start...crazy long list right? those guys are real game changers right? Neither of these guys...will be the best player in this draft class in 5 years.

hows Josh Jackson doing? Hows Jonathan Issaac doing? Hows Malik Monk doing?

would those teams bash those picks the way you guys bash Frank? last i checked they are all going through bumps and bruises their rookie year...i dont see the next Duncan or Lebron in that class


and that class is better than this years class hence its all about your scouting team. No one thought Donovan would be better than Fultz and Lonzo...literally no one. I personally liked him more but never did i think it would be like this but just off the eye test w/o looking at mocks..i liked what DM brought to the table. Thats what we need to do this year.

Trey Burke went 12/6 his rookie year...not bad actually but he did shoot 38% from the field...and was also 21 years old.

so..if a 21 year old rookie can get better and be 25 years old and come here and get love from you.....how can you not project a 19 year old getting better as his career progresses...are you guys only able to evaluate whats happening today? Plenty of players "not ready" at 19 are now all stars at 27.

how many all stars in 2018 set the league on fire their rookie year?

Listen fellas..i get it...we all been fans here for a long time. I went as far back as his play when he was 15 years old and he turned 2 things that were a complete weakness of his..into a strength by the time he played at 18. he couldnt shoot and couldnt play off the ball....he worked on his game to make those things a positive by the time he was scouted at 18 playing with grown men...he was skinny at 17...going into this year his body made strides to compete at this level. He will take his hits and adjust.


If we are having this convo when he's 25...than by all means thats a logical dispute but nothing about Franks progress tells me that Frank lacks the desire or work ethic.....so putting that into a 6'5 PG with a 7' wingspan....i'll bank on his progress as he gets older. Complaining now is just old guys looking for a reason to complain without objectively looking at history.
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Re: It's time to start questioning Perry

Postby cragganmor » February 6, 2018, 9:34 pm

Chauncey Billups was pretty bad his first few seasons, got shuffled around a lot. Steve Nash also struggled with consistency. Kyle Lowry was pretty bad for a stretch, too. The point is that rookie pgs struggle, especially 19 year olds; the lack of faith and rush to judgement is unwarranted.
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Re: It's time to start questioning Perry

Postby taowave » February 6, 2018, 9:45 pm

Cragg, anything is possible.The question is how probable..

He seems to be playing way too cautiously.His teammates in Europe sad similar things..

cragganmor wrote:Chauncey Billups was pretty bad his first few seasons, got shuffled around a lot. Steve Nash also struggled with consistency. Kyle Lowry was pretty bad for a stretch, too. The point is that rookie pgs struggle, especially 19 year olds; the lack of faith and rush to judgement is unwarranted.
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Re: It's time to start questioning Perry

Postby Don Che » February 7, 2018, 12:20 am

Tao is basing a kids career to his rookie year..... the only person thinking irrational is you.

In that theory you would of traded Dirk... Kobe...basically every bad rookie ever...Gary payton tear up the league?...John Stockton? Or Frank would be the first player at 19 to get better in the future.

I think this fan base doesn't like rookies because Isaiah Thomas/Donnie/Frannie/Layden traded them away for 12 years so you forgot what they look like..maybe we should get a 32 year old scrub so you can see something familiar.
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Re: It's time to start questioning Perry

Postby ISIAH_THOMAS » February 7, 2018, 12:38 am

Now you can see the terrible roster nobody worth watching
TAKE THAT FOR DATA
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Re: It's time to start questioning Perry

Postby rebound » February 7, 2018, 2:47 am

so are lee and jack still going to average 30+ minutes a night or are perry and hornacek done with the delusion that these shitty vets are going to carry this team into the playoffs?
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Re: It's time to start questioning Perry

Postby StevoStarks » February 7, 2018, 1:24 pm

I think Perry blew it with that Hernangomez trade.
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Re: It's time to start questioning Perry

Postby taowave » February 7, 2018, 1:32 pm

If you can not see that Ball,Donovan and Smith have IT while Frank does not as of today,we just don't see the same qualitys..

Frank needs to see Tony Robbins

Don Che wrote:Tao is basing a kids career to his rookie year..... the only person thinking irrational is you.

In that theory you would of traded Dirk... Kobe...basically every bad rookie ever...Gary payton tear up the league?...John Stockton? Or Frank would be the first player at 19 to get better in the future.

I think this fan base doesn't like rookies because Isaiah Thomas/Donnie/Frannie/Layden traded them away for 12 years so you forgot what they look like..maybe we should get a 32 year old scrub so you can see something familiar.
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Re: It's time to start questioning Perry

Postby rebound » February 7, 2018, 1:40 pm

so Perry decided Hernangomez's value would decrease more than CHA's 2020 and 2021 second round picks with increased playing time.

That says a lot about Perry or Hernangomez.
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Re: It's time to start questioning Perry

Postby Don Che » February 7, 2018, 1:40 pm

they are def further along than Frank is right now....but it doesnt discourage me on where Frank will be. Frank can easily bring more value than Ball and DSJ in a year or 2

kind of funny that we've seen Frank lock both of those guys up already this season...im perfectly fine being patient with a 19 year old.

when he turns it around tho....we'll see what the haters of today will say.
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Re: It's time to start questioning Perry

Postby Don Che » February 7, 2018, 1:41 pm

rebound wrote:so Perry decided Hernangomez's value would decrease more than CHA's 2020 and 2021 second round picks with increased playing time.

That says a lot about Perry or Hernangomez.


i would of preferred we give up Kyle for this trade....and trade Willy in the offseason after he plays half the year.
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Re: It's time to start questioning Perry

Postby Don Che » February 7, 2018, 1:50 pm

i was positive all year because i genuinely thought Jeff was playing Kyle and Kanter to showcase them.

i figured we'd trade 1....let willy play...let the other walk or trade and let Noah get his 15-20 mins off the bench


but now i see..that Jeff didnt play them to showcase them...he actually thinks they were better and that to me....is just ridiculous.
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Re: It's time to start questioning Perry

Postby spree#8 » February 7, 2018, 2:10 pm

Don Che wrote:i was positive all year because i genuinely thought Jeff was playing Kyle and Kanter to showcase them.

i figured we'd trade 1....let willy play...let the other walk or trade and let Noah get his 15-20 mins off the bench


but now i see..that Jeff didnt play them to showcase them...he actually thinks they were better and that to me....is just ridiculous.


Why? Kanter, while only 2 years older, is what Willy can hope to develop into and O'Quinn just brings another dimension with his shot blocking and passing ability. It was clear from day one, that both of them outplayed Willy in practice or Willy would nonetheless have gotten more time, so I was always surprised at the showcase theory of some people.

One question with this trade of course will be into what Willy develops and what we get for these two draft picks, so it's one of those trades where you simply don't know what to make of yet. Can turn out great if Charlotte is bad in 2019-20 and 2020-21, which is a good possibility, or bad if Willy starts to look more promising than one of our centers in no time, which is as of now not that likely (then he should've gotten more PT already).

You can be very negative that we lost a prospect we liked or you can see this trade at this point like this:

Bobby Marks
ESPN
The Knicks now shave $1.5M off the salary cap next season with the addition of Johnny Bryant. The power forward will be a restricted free agent in July. New York now has $94M in guaranteed contracts in 2018-19 but are over the $101M salary cap based on the $10M Doug McDermott cap hold. The big coup for New York is the 2 future second-round picks for a player in Willy Hernangomez that was out of the rotation.


The bigger question for me is what that means for our plans with the other centers.

There is still chatter regarding O'Quinn, so there could still be something:

Ian Begley
ESPN Staff Writer
Opposing executives say the Knicks continue to take calls on center Kyle O'Quinn and guard Courtney Lee in the wake of the Willy Hernangomez deal. New York is still trying to trade Joakim Noah as well.


I'm not sure though, because both Kanter and O'Quinn have shown something this season that could be worth resigning them at the right price tag. Kanter surely will stay in his contract for another year in the dry free agent market, but O'Quinn should opt out, so a decision on him would come first. With KP injured and Kanter likely staying for another year I wouldn't be opposed to trade O'Quinn now for more future assets, especially because with three draft picks in our hands we might bring in another center prospect anyways and we also should keep in mind that KP could also move more to the center spot in the future when we find another athletic 3/4 that allows us to play smaller and more modern.

Finally back to Willy: ideally I would've liked to keep him at least until the draft, because a package of our lottery pick and Hernangomez might have been a good starting point for a try to move up in the lottery. 2 more second round picks from Charlotte can also be good in those situations, but it's hard to tell what other teams consider more valuable at that point.
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Re: It's time to start questioning Perry

Postby StevoStarks » February 7, 2018, 2:29 pm

We are not getting rid of Noah without taking on a player like Chandler Parsons. I guess it works in our favor if we get an equally shitty contract, but at least the player is a wing and fits our rotation.
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