2018-2019 Tank err, Rebuild

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2018-2019 Tank err, Rebuild

Postby shakespeare » June 22, 2018, 9:10 pm

In the immortal words of Watcher...

“Why waste time?”

You might say it's too early to look ahead to the 2019 NBA Draft. But if you say that, you'd be wrong. Or, at least, you would be proving you're not in the content-creating business. Either way, know this: This time last year, it was not hard to predict that nine of Thursday night's lottery picks -- namely Deandre Ayton, Luka Doncic, Mo Bamba, Wendell Carter, Collin Sexton, Jaren Jackson Jr., Kevin Knox, Miles Bridges and Michael Porter Jr. -- would be lottery picks in the 2018 NBA Draft.

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/2019 ... shmen/amp/


The following ‘19 Mock Draft might give everyone the earliest indication of what to expect. I’ve only paid attention to Barrett and Reddish, and both are top-notch hoopers.

And since I don’t see why we can’t be 1 of the worse teams in the league next season, I’m gonna go ahead and declare the New York Knicks’ 2018-2019 season as
The Absolute Year of the Tank https://www.google.com/amp/s/thebiglead ... ddish/amp/

Cause this is the Team Tank we’ve awaited for years and years. It’s the one that can give us the 1st or 2nd pick and complete the rebuild.
Last edited by shakespeare on July 19, 2018, 3:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 2018-2019 Tank

Postby shakespeare » June 22, 2018, 9:16 pm

God, no.

Here’s How Celtics Could Have Four First-Round Picks In 2019 NBA Draft https://nesn.com/2018/05/heres-how-celt ... draft/amp/
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Re: 2018-2019 Tank

Postby rebound » June 22, 2018, 9:31 pm

cant think about tanking. win or lose, just dont repeat last season with jarret jack, courtney lee, and michael beasley being premiere players.
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Re: 2018-2019 Tank

Postby nazrmohamed » June 22, 2018, 9:47 pm

I'll say right now I'm all about Cam Reddish and assuming we do what we always do and win like 10 games in April I'll go with Sekou Dounbayo or Daniel Gafford

Reddish would be the wing you'd love to have between Frank and Knox making us probably the longest team in the nba. He's got a fluid game with advanced handle. Could work on his shot and intensity but similar to a McGrady
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CcaXJJgnspg

Gafford reminds me of Kenyon Martin, nuff said
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=r43NDgHvfxs

Sekou reminds me of Josh Smith who you don't cringe when taking jumpshots and a eurostep. Much rather him be our stretch 4 than Knox but have both of them at forward flanking KP at C.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UQ76Vou9xqg

Enjoy
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Re: 2018-2019 Tank

Postby big_j_NY » June 22, 2018, 10:04 pm

My man shakes starting it off right :happy: :happy:
#EmbraceTheTank2018

#InPorzingisWeTrust

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Re: 2018-2019 Tank

Postby Red » June 23, 2018, 8:48 am

rebound wrote:cant think about tanking. win or lose, just dont repeat last season with jarret jack, courtney lee, and michael beasley being premiere players.


Agreed. It's not about losing, it's about how we approach this season. What goals can we achieve without considering the purposeful loss as a strategy?

I thinks it's pretty simple if you look at it like this:

The consensus is that the league has changed. More threes, bigs on the perimeter, blah blah blah. That standpoint is usually toward offense. The reasons why the league has changed are debatable.

So what can a young rebuilding team like the Knicks do? Follow suit and adapt are the obvious answers, and obtaining a star or more has always been agreed upon. That means the goal of rebuilding teams must include developing players, cap flexibility, keeping draft picks, and selecting solid players.

That said the team should make this season about defense. To the point that our defensive goal should mirror any teams offensive goal; to be the best. To the point where playing great defense supersedes our desire to win. Obviously we'll let the chips fall where they may but we will accept losing in favor of development of our youth and our team defense.

We should want to play defense like GS and HOU play offense. Even if we lose we want to establish our identity as a defensive team. We should be the architects against the current NBA landscape. We may not win but we can develop the blueprint on how to combat these undisciplined, shot happy teams.

And if defense is our priority, even over winning for a period, it would be like a cornered animal with nothing to lose. A drunken bully who loves to brawl. We should pride ourselves on playing spoiler. A real IDGAF about making the playoffs attitude which would really bother the opponent who assumes otherwise.

That also means create and cultivate our identity for future acquisitions. Think Tom Thibodeau. Current players, draft picks, free agents, players traded for should know New York is a defensive team when Fiz is done. There should be no question as to the identity and minimal talent we seek: defense.

And maybe our record won't reflect it but our goal should be to inprove and be one of the best defensive teams. I'm guessing some may say we need talented defensive players first and my response would be approach the season as if you already have a few and are trying to find that out. Prioritize defense over wins.

*p.s. Shakes I got that I had the Bridges mixed up in that post. Knox played against Miles. :happy:
Knicks president Steve Mills made it clear that New York plans to sign a star in the 2019 offseason. "Porzingis is a magnet."

"I’m ready to come out and show people I’m able to play defense...’’Kevin Knox
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Re: 2018-2019 Tank

Postby Don Che » June 23, 2018, 8:53 am

.....Nas
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Re: 2018-2019 Tank

Postby shakespeare » June 23, 2018, 10:56 am

nazrmohamed wrote:
Reddish would be the wing you'd love to have between Frank and Knox making us probably the longest team in the nba. He's got a fluid game with advanced handle. Could work on his shot and intensity but similar to a McGrady
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CcaXJJgnspg



Agreed, Reddish is an extremely versatile basketball player. Not completely sure about the often read comparisons to McGrady, Penny Hardaway and Grant Hill and Paul George and Jimmy Butler, though, at least not at this point. But he’s a real-live hoop talent and definitely the type of running mate that Porzingis needs.
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Re: 2018-2019 Tank

Postby shakespeare » June 23, 2018, 11:02 am

IDK, Red, I’m hearing Porzingis might skip next season, we’re gonna lose anyway. Fans might as well look forward to what comes via the Draft as the result to a losing season.

I believe the coaches preach defense in practice. I see no reason why they’d refuse to do as much. It’s probably like Hornacek once said, “New York doesn’t have the personnel to play top-notch defense.”

But we have the personnel to tank for a top-notch draft pick, though.
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Re: 2018-2019 Tank

Postby Red » June 23, 2018, 12:10 pm

If KP misses the entire season he won't have as much leverage or demand on the fa market. I guess that helps us. And if we have the anticipated cap space we could theoretically replace him citing injury concerns. I'm sure that would be of concern to his camp.

If he somehow makes it back before then (avg. Acl recovery time = 2-6 mo. after surgery) he can restore his value, which is more likely if he can. He won't sit out if he's near 100% imo if he wants to get paid and the majority of players want to get paid. (see: Ayton talking about his 2nd contract as a goal)

And if he returns we're playing to win. In that case we'd have no idea how that may turn out.

Your boy KP got injured at a very inopportune time; right when we're on the cusp of entering an important phase in our rebuild and development. In actuality this circumstance will help prove & answer the following:

1. Can KP return quickly from a major injury?
2. Is KP about the $ or winning?
3. Does the FO have confidence in KP?
4. KP's market value.
5. Is there a group within that can thrive without KP?
6. How much stock and value does the franchise have in next year's draft?
7. Fiz's development capabilities

We shall see. My money is on KP retuning after the All-star break.
Knicks president Steve Mills made it clear that New York plans to sign a star in the 2019 offseason. "Porzingis is a magnet."

"I’m ready to come out and show people I’m able to play defense...’’Kevin Knox
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Re: 2018-2019 Tank

Postby rebound » June 23, 2018, 12:27 pm

Well said Red. :clap:
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Re: 2018-2019 Tank

Postby nazrmohamed » June 23, 2018, 1:14 pm

Agreed. It's not about losing, it's about how we approach this season. What goals can we achieve without considering the purposeful loss as a strategy?

I thinks it's pretty simple if you look at it like this:

The consensus is that the league has changed. More threes, bigs on the perimeter, blah blah blah. That standpoint is usually toward offense. The reasons why the league has changed are debatable.

So what can a young rebuilding team like the Knicks do? Follow suit and adapt are the obvious answers, and obtaining a star or more has always been agreed upon. That means the goal of rebuilding teams must include developing players, cap flexibility, keeping draft picks, and selecting solid players. 

That said the team should make this season about defense. To the point that our defensive goal should mirror any teams offensive goal; to be the best. To the point where playing great defense supersedes our desire to win. Obviously we'll let the chips fall where they may but we will accept losing in favor of development of our youth and our team defense.

We should want to play defense like GS and HOU play offense. Even if we lose we want to establish our identity as a defensive team. We should be the architects against the current NBA landscape. We may not win but we can develop the blueprint on how to combat these undisciplined, shot happy teams. 

And if defense is our priority, even over winning for a period, it would be like a cornered animal with nothing to lose. A drunken bully who loves to brawl. We should pride ourselves on playing spoiler. A real IDGAF about making the playoffs attitude which would really bother the opponent who assumes otherwise. 

That also means create and cultivate our identity for future acquisitions. Think Tom Thibodeau. Current players, draft picks, free agents, players traded for should know New York is a defensive team when Fiz is done. There should be no question as to the identity and minimal talent we seek: defense. 

And maybe our record won't reflect it but our goal should be to inprove and be one of the best defensive teams. I'm guessing some may say we need talented defensive players first and my response would be approach the season as if you already have a few and are trying to find that out. Prioritize defense over wins.


:cry: that was beautiful man.
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Re: 2018-2019 Tank

Postby taowave » June 23, 2018, 1:36 pm

Red,you are Way off on ACL recuperation time.Wolverine couldn't come back from a torn ACL in 2-6 months.. Adrian Peterson,a freak of nature took apx 9 months..And that was astonishing, especially as a running back..

If he's not healthy or he bolts,we are screwed...

We could offer him an Embiid type contract,but do we really care about MSG money?

KP returning early is the stupidest thing he can do.The risk of injury reoccurrence is significant higher,and what's the sense of taking that risk and possibly ruining the tank..

FYI,there is talk of Denver shutting down MPjr next year so he can fully heal..

I'd rather sit KP and pay him..

Red wrote:If KP misses the entire season he won't have as much leverage or demand on the fa market. I guess that helps us. And if we have the anticipated cap space we could theoretically replace him citing injury concerns. I'm sure that would be of concern to his camp.

If he somehow makes it back before then (avg. Acl recovery time = 2-6 mo. after surgery) he can restore his value, which is more likely if he can. He won't sit out if he's near 100% imo if he wants to get paid and the majority of players want to get paid. (see: Ayton talking about his 2nd contract as a goal)

And if he returns we're playing to win. In that case we'd have no idea how that may turn out.

Your boy KP got injured at a very inopportune time; right when we're on the cusp of entering an important phase in our rebuild and development. In actuality this circumstance will help prove & answer the following:

1. Can KP return quickly from a major injury?
2. Is KP about the $ or winning?
3. Does the FO have confidence in KP?
4. KP's market value.
5. Is there a group within that can thrive without KP?
6. How much stock and value does the franchise have in next year's draft?
7. Fiz's development capabilities

We shall see. My money is on KP retuning after the All-star break.
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Re: 2018-2019 Tank

Postby cragganmor » June 23, 2018, 2:17 pm

2-6 mos. for full ACL recovery? Maybe if we had an Infinity Stone... Way too optimistic.

Thankfully, there was no meniscus nor MCL damage, but he'll likely need a year to be cleared for basketball activity, then he needs to rebuild competitive conditioning and strength, timing.

Agree with your bullet points; Fiz has a lot of work in front of him, it shows in the size of his staff.

Picking Knox & MRob was a good move to hedge against a lengthy absence. Knox can create shots, score while Mitch protects the rim. Looking forward to them as bright spots of the upcoming season.
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Re: 2018-2019 Tank

Postby Red » June 23, 2018, 6:56 pm

Tao you know he's injury prone, you said it yourself. If he can't make it back for the entire season how much are you willing to offer?
Knicks president Steve Mills made it clear that New York plans to sign a star in the 2019 offseason. "Porzingis is a magnet."

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Re: 2018-2019 Tank

Postby shakespeare » June 23, 2018, 7:00 pm

Red. You don’t really believe Dolan will refuse to give Porzingis the mini-max, do you? If so, I’m not entertaining the thought. Also, here’s an article where Dolan appears OK with his “great player” Porzingis missing the entire season, he also “stressed the importance of building a strong supporting cast around Porzingis.” https://www.google.com/amp/s/syndicatio ... y.amp.html

Note: After Mark Cuban went and got Luka Doncic in the Draft, the thought crossed my mind about whether he’d look to sign Porzingis in the future?
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Re: 2018-2019 Tank

Postby Red » June 23, 2018, 7:15 pm

shakespeare wrote:Red. You don’t really believe that Dolan will refuse to give Porzingis the mini-max, do you?


I think Dolan will leave it up to Mil-Per-Fiz.

cragganmor wrote:2-6 mos. for full ACL recovery? Maybe if we had an Infinity Stone... Way too optimistic.

Thankfully, there was no meniscus nor MCL damage, but he'll likely need a year to be cleared for basketball activity, then he needs to rebuild competitive conditioning and strength, timing.

Agree with your bullet points; Fiz has a lot of work in front of him, it shows in the size of his staff.

Picking Knox & MRob was a good move to hedge against a lengthy absence. Knox can create shots, score while Mitch protects the rim. Looking forward to them as bright spots of the upcoming season.


I meant 2-6mo rehab after surgery and the page I got that from has 2-9mos in the illustration :? . I can speak from experience it took about 6-8 months for me to heal from open surgery. He had surgery on Feb 13.

The 2019 ASG is Feb 17. I'm giving him a year. 3 months beyond the norm. I'm in no way saying rush him back but if he's healthy which I expect after 12 months of rehab, I think he'll play.
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Re: 2018-2019 Tank

Postby shakespeare » June 23, 2018, 7:29 pm

OK.

You don’t really think Mil-Per-Fiz will refuse to offer Porzingis the mini-max, do you?
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Re: 2018-2019 Tank

Postby taowave » June 23, 2018, 8:15 pm

Ooohh tough question...Here are my thoughts.The prudent thing is to extend the qualifying offer and let him be a restricted free agent..With that said,I would feel team KP out and see where they are at.The Q.O may cause friction..

Janis may tell us max him or he's gone...



I posted details the options and implications...





Knicks Can Lock Up Porzingis Through 2024 for $157 Million, but Should They?
YARON WEITZMAN
FEBRUARY 26, 2018
NEW YORK — In a way, Kristaps Porzingis' ACL tear has clarified things for the New York Knicks. No longer is management worried about chasing a playoff spot. Instead, the team's priority is the future. Young players are getting starter's minutes. Scouting for June's draft has begun.

But there's another decision the Knicks will have to make after the season, one that could also be affected by Porzingis' injury.

This summer the 22-year-old Porzingis will be eligible for a contract extension. Officially billed the designated rookie extension, the contract is only available to former first-round picks as they enter their fourth NBA seasons, as Porzingis will come summertime, and can only be handed to one player per team.


The extension adds five years to the player's contract—keeping him with his current team for six more seasons—at a max salary worth roughly 25 percent of the team's salary cap, with the possibility of incremental raises along the way.

That translates to five years and about $157 million to keep Porzingis in New York through the 2024 season. In basketball terms, it would solidify Porzingis’s status as the franchise cornerstone for more than half a decade.

Of course, there are no guarantees Porzingis would accept the extension. His brother, Janis, who also serves as his agent, has said in the past that Porzingis prioritizes winning over money.

You can't misfire on max deals in the NBA and still compete. No matter how unicorn-like Porzingis can be, the decision of whether to offer him this extension must be carefully considered. The contract shouldn't be offered solely because Porzingis is eligible, especially given his recent ACL injury.

"He is obviously a very important member of this basketball team and this organization and part of this New York community," Knicks general manager Scott Perry told reporters after Porzingis' injury when asked about the extension. "We'll deal with that at the appropriate time."

But that time is soon. Here are the questions the Knicks should analyze before it arrives.



What are the Knicks' options?

There's nothing that states the Knicks must offer Porzingis the extension. They could instead wait a year, allow Porzingis to play out the 2018-19 season on his current deal (he'll earn $5.7 million) and then extend him a qualifying offer, which would make him a restricted free agent in the summer of 2019. Porzingis would then be allowed to shop around for the best offer (likely a max), but the Knicks would own the right to match any deal he signs.


Of course, the Knicks could also decline to offer Porzingis a qualifying offer, which would allow him to become an unrestricted free agent. This would not be wise.



What are the reasons to not offer Porzingis the extension?

There are two benefits. First is the obvious: the injury. Officially designating a player as your franchise cornerstone while he's rehabbing from a torn ACL isn't ideal. Waiting would provide the Knicks with time to better evaluate the injury and determine if and how it could hamper him going forward.

Holding off would also give the Knicks around $10 million more in cap room in the summer of 2019. If they renounce the rights to all their free agents, they'd have around $30 million in total. That would be enough to ink a star free agent to pair with Porzingis.



What's the downside to not offering Porzingis the extension?

As the Sixers learned during Sam Hinkie's reign, basketball players are human beings, not data points. Coddling isn't required, but emotions, relationships and reputations matter.

The Knicks have spent the past half-year trying to fix the damage wreaked by Phil Jackson—specifically, his alienation of Porzingis. Team president Steve Mills and Perry have made it clear that they view Porzingis as the foundation. But withholding an extension could burn the bridge that was just rebuilt.

As one scout put it when asked if delaying an extension and prioritizing the extra cap flexibility would be wise: "Not if you want to be a normal organization and attract free agents in the future and develop positive relationships with agents."


There are other ways for the Knicks to clear additional cap space. They could find a new home for Courtney Lee, stretch or buy out Joakim Noah, or even try to trade Tim Hardaway Jr.



What about the ACL?


Mary Altaffer/Associated Press
"I'm no doctor, but I think the ACL surgeries we've seen a lot in professional sports now have gotten better and better," Perry told reporters earlier this month. "We've got tremendous confidence in our medical group here that he's going to make more than a full recovery."

Recovery times can vary, but according to Dr. Andrew Barr, a former director of performance and rehabilitation for the Knicks and the founder of Innovate Performance in Los Angeles, a typical recovery takes nine to 12 months. Of course, that doesn't mean Porzingis will return as the same player. His 7'3" stature—and all the issues that come attached to being so tall—puts him at more risk.

His injury history also needs to be taken into account. Porzingis missed 26 games over his first two NBA seasons before going down this year. He's dealt with sore knees and ankles. He's experienced pain in his back and his right, shooting shoulder.

Talent is great, but franchise players need to be durable too.



Can Porzingis evolve into the No. 1 guy on a championship-caliber team?

Prior to tearing his ACL, Porzingis was averaging 22.7 points per game to go along with a league-leading 2.4 blocks. He was launching nearly five triples a game—drilling 39.3 percent of them—and holding opponents to ridiculously staunch 49.2 percent shooting at the rim, the best mark among players who defended at least four such shots per game.


He's improved every year. He entered the NBA with a jump shot and not much else in his offensive arsenal. Last year he added some crossovers. This year he added a lethal post game.

His game is still lacking in certain areas (passing, most of all), and there are a few NBA executives and scouts worried about his durability and inability to elevate his team, going back to his pre-NBA days in Spain. He'll need to improve his court vision to transform into a true go-to option, one who could punish opposing double-teams and make his teammates better.

But most NBA insiders will tell you this: Porzingis is the type of talent teams spend years searching for. The Knicks played like a 43-win team with him on the floor and a 22-win one without him, according to the statistical website Cleaning the Glass.



Should the Knicks offer Porzingis a full extension this summer?

Break it down, and it becomes clear the Knicks don't have much of a choice.

The extra cap room? That would be nice, but it's unlikely to be a difference-maker. If a starry free agent wanted to join the club, the Knicks could figure out ways to make it work.

The ACL injury? It's concerning, but according to a league source with knowledge of these matters, the Knicks should have no issue inserting a method of protection into the contract. It's unlikely they could get away with loading it full of incentives and markers the way the Sixers did over the summer with Joel Embiid, a star who's missed multiple seasons with multiple injuries. But they'd still be somewhat protected.


Porzingis' durability is a concern—and will remain so for the foreseeable future. He's also got one more leap to make on the offensive end to be worthy of a franchise designation.

For the reasons outlined above, though, there's too much to lose by not offering him the extension. Doing so might be a risky proposition, but it's a risk the Knicks must take.


Red wrote:Tao you know he's injury prone, you said it yourself. If he can't make it back for the entire season how much are you willing to offer?
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Re: 2018-2019 Tank

Postby Red » June 23, 2018, 8:57 pm

shakespeare wrote:OK.

You don’t really think Mil-Per-Fiz will refuse to offer Porzingis the mini-max, do you?


I'd say the odds are no barring something unfortunate. They'll offer it. Me- I'd probably play hard ball knowing I could afford Kyrie +. I understand his thought process is he's a star the franchise can't afford to lose but I'd want to call his bluff. I'd want to see if he really wants to go play somewhere else or if he really wants to be here. As a matter of business I can't commit 5 years to someone who can't make it through the season let alone the playoffs.

Thanks for the in depth post tao.

You want to extend the qo tao I get it, we can match any deal; feel out the market who we assume if he's 100% would be top offers. But 5 years? :?

You want to decide today to put your $ on this guy for 5 years? I can't... They passed on MPJ so. All i can think about is how hard you went on noah and rose and their injuries.
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"I’m ready to come out and show people I’m able to play defense...’’Kevin Knox
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