2018-2019 Tank err, Rebuild

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Re: 2018-2019 Tank err, Rebuild

Postby gradyandrew » August 13, 2018, 8:35 am

While it sounds simple, good decision making seems to be the only way to build success, not the draft or anything else. Indiana, Boston, Toronto don't really seem to make any mistakes, and that's why I think that rather than get filled with hope that these guys will develop into starters, were better off examining the Ron Baker deal. It's just tough for me to believe that anyone who made that decision should ever be expected to make enough right ones going forward that will lead to a successful team.
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Re: 2018-2019 Tank err, Rebuild

Postby NewlyKnicked » August 13, 2018, 9:24 am

Perry wasn't around for THJ and Baker's deals. I think Mills got a bit drunk on power there. The latter deals have been better and in line with a clear rebuilding effort adding talented pieces with complementary skill sets. Plus, drafting and striking a deal require different management skills as mentioned with Isaiah.
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Re: 2018-2019 Tank err, Rebuild

Postby cragganmor » August 13, 2018, 12:50 pm

In that brief time, Mills kinda went nuts, spending cap like it was in Turkish lira. Baker's deal is not a cap killer, expiring at end of season. THJ has impact on cap, but he can alleviate the negative buzz if he elevates his play which was the expectation by mills when he signed. He's gonna get the green light but let's see if his shot selection matches his efficiency.

Lee and Noah are the 2 guys we need to move.
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Re: 2018-2019 Tank err, Rebuild

Postby Don Che » August 13, 2018, 12:59 pm

I just want us to proper evaluate where we are and think big picture.

i dont want us looking stupid going at Kyrie unless it makes sense to us.

ill say it like this...i'd rather us be int he lottery and gain high end talent at 18 over trading for Melo in 2011.

Melo wanted to be here cuz of the lights....not to win it all. Dolan wanted to sell jerseys and Donnie sold us on 2010 and doubled down with 2 guys u can't win with as the alphas.

if Kyrie wants to be here because he likes chilin here...keep him in Boston.

i want ppl coming here because we have a chance to make noise.
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Re: 2018-2019 Tank err, Rebuild

Postby Don Che » August 13, 2018, 1:05 pm

i like Lee for this young team.

He's prolly the highest IQ guy on our team after Noah leaves. Which isnt saying a lot but still needed with a young team.

plus his contract expires sooner than Tims and Tim will have every chance to put up career numbers.

if he plays well the first couple months of the year and a trade can comes in that gives us flexibility and future picks....I'd do it.

then resign Lee on an even cheaper deal. More flexibility going forward. All of that is heavily unlikely on many levels but those are things that tend to happen to us.

the wrong guy does great for us and we either dont trade him when we should or change up the roster to sink them.
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Re: 2018-2019 Tank err, Rebuild

Postby cragganmor » August 13, 2018, 3:00 pm

I think that's why the THJ's name is mentioned in trade talks. Lee does have leadership qualities, THJ not so much. Which is the more valuable on a rebuilding club? The fly in the ointment is that THJ is Mills' guy. Will that change with Perry and Fiz aboard?
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Re: 2018-2019 Tank err, Rebuild

Postby Don Che » August 13, 2018, 3:16 pm

i think Tim controls his fate in this. but whats more valueable to a team...a top 5 pick and future assets or a top 10 pick and Tim dropping 18 a night.

im not sure. its a tough call.

but if he comes in and shoots 18% ina stretch...it would be worse case scenrio because 1 he'd suck and 2. we can't trade him.
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Re: 2018-2019 Tank err, Rebuild

Postby mbn007 » August 13, 2018, 5:35 pm

cragganmor wrote:In that brief time, Mills kinda went nuts, spending cap like it was in Turkish lira. Baker's deal is not a cap killer, expiring at end of season. THJ has impact on cap, but he can alleviate the negative buzz if he elevates his play which was the expectation by mills when he signed. He's gonna get the green light but let's see if his shot selection matches his efficiency.

Lee and Noah are the 2 guys we need to move.

Agreed.

I think the THJ we signed is a much better player then the THJ we traded away a couple of years earlier. That said, i do not think the THJ we signed is worth his contract.
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Re: 2018-2019 Tank err, Rebuild

Postby gradyandrew » August 14, 2018, 4:27 am

Tim is a competitor who leaves it out there on the floor every night. I think he has real leadership qualities, that's why the JR comparison seemed so off base to me. I also think that a lot of his shots took place in the flow of the game, like those 3 pointers on the break. Even if those shots miss, they still have a positive impact, i.e.teams have to shy away from going for offensive boards.

I'd much rather have him than vet Lee. Nothing to take away from Lee, but he's a vet who's been on a lot of teams. Tim wants to win in New York, and I'm guessing his existential love for the likes of us played a major factor in Burke taking the G league road to get here.

I hope that he and Burke are the starters next season. Maybe I'm just sentimental.
It’s not the frustration of the fans of us losing, they want to see the dog, they want to see that fight, they want to see that hunger inside of you. - THJ
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Re: 2018-2019 Tank err, Rebuild

Postby cragganmor » August 14, 2018, 1:03 pm

Hard to envision THJ and Burke starting; too many holes defensively unless they elevate their d; defensive efficiency of 113 and 114 is kinda porous, will need to be extremely efficient on offense to negate that deficiency. Playing the Michigan backcourt is sentimental, not a sound strategy except against a mediocre team.
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Re: 2018-2019 Tank err, Rebuild

Postby spree#8 » August 14, 2018, 1:55 pm

mbn007 wrote:Agreed.

I think the THJ we signed is a much better player then the THJ we traded away a couple of years earlier. That said, i do not think the THJ we signed is worth his contract.


So far he is in the plus for us by 2.4 million. Paid 16.5m, while his season was worth an estimated 18.9m. https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/ca ... rdaway-jr/
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Re: 2018-2019 Tank err, Rebuild

Postby mbn007 » August 14, 2018, 5:44 pm

spree#8 wrote:
So far he is in the plus for us by 2.4 million. Paid 16.5m, while his season was worth an estimated 18.9m. https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/ca ... rdaway-jr/


I don't know. Someone else in my office made the same comment you just did. Just does not seem like that is an accurate rating.
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Re: 2018-2019 Tank err, Rebuild

Postby spree#8 » August 15, 2018, 2:31 am

spree#8 wrote:
So far he is in the plus for us by 2.4 million. Paid 16.5m, while his season was worth an estimated 18.9m. https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/ca ... rdaway-jr/

mbn007 wrote:I don't know. Someone else in my office made the same comment you just did. Just does not seem like that is an accurate rating.


At least that estimation is based on a well thought out mathematical model and not just a claim or a guess by you or me. Doesn't mean much though. The important thing when it comes to our investment is that he keeps building on his last two seasons and stays a 32plus minutes player.
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Re: 2018-2019 Tank err, Rebuild

Postby shakespeare » August 15, 2018, 8:26 am

Knickerbocker fans need a scapegoat. I get it.

THJ is not him, though.

Does he need to do this and do that? Of course. No different than every other player on the roster.
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Re: 2018-2019 Tank err, Rebuild

Postby H20Knick » August 15, 2018, 9:41 am

i don't think anyone is trying to make THJ a scapegoat. It's not like we're supposed to be winning and THJ is the reason we're not.

Some just think he has too many flaws to be a future starter on a championship team and want to try all the alternatives why they're still young and cheap. No one is blaming THJ for anything.

There are are 3 categories of Knicks right now. The old players that no one is going to talk about because they're old and won't be around when the Knicks can contend: Lee/Noah

The neophytes on rookie contracts who we're evaluating to see whether or not they've got the potential to be starters on a championship team: KP (probably), Mudiay (probably not), Burke (probably not, but lots of optimism), Frank (too soon to tell, but lots of optimism), Knox (hasn't played a game yet, but he needs to be), Mitchell (hasn't played a game yet, but would be a great surprise).

Then you have Kanter and THJ. They're the same age. Both give starter-level production. One of them has one year left on his deal and everyone is perfectly okay with him leaving. The other has 3 years left and we are all supposed to commit to him. I don't really understand why there is such a difference between how those two guys are viewed here. But it is what it is.
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Re: 2018-2019 Tank err, Rebuild

Postby taowave » August 15, 2018, 11:10 am

I actually get Sprees feelings on THjr,but I don't know if that would be my first "big money" commitment.

I'd rather spend 25 mil on a stud,than 17 mil on THj..
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Re: 2018-2019 Tank err, Rebuild

Postby shakespeare » August 15, 2018, 1:52 pm

H20. You’re getting ahead of yourself. New York isn’t even a playoff team, let alone a championship team.

We’re a lottery team.

Is THJ good enough to be a starter on a perennial lottery team?
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Re: 2018-2019 Tank err, Rebuild

Postby shakespeare » August 15, 2018, 1:58 pm

Tao. I’m sure New York would rather spend $25 million on a stud player as well. But first, there has to be a stud player willing to sign with New York.

The problem isn’t with THJ — the problem is with the New York Knicks front office inability to sign a stud player, the front office offering THJ a contract you feel he didn’t deserve.

Say it with me: The problem is with the the front office.
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Re: 2018-2019 Tank err, Rebuild

Postby shakespeare » August 15, 2018, 2:03 pm

H20Knick wrote:Some just think he has too many flaws to be a future starter on a championship team


The same can be said about every single player on the roster, even the ones given the benefit of the doubt.

To constantly throw THJ or any other player’s name out there is to scapegoat.
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Re: 2018-2019 Tank err, Rebuild

Postby H20Knick » August 15, 2018, 2:31 pm

shakespeare wrote:H20. You’re getting ahead of yourself. New York isn’t even a playoff team, let alone a championship team.

We’re a lottery team.

Is THJ good enough to be a starter on a perennial lottery team?


But we're trying to build a championship team. Not a perennial lottery team or even a marginal playoff team, or a perpetual 4th seed. It all comes down to whether you view THJ as a prospect or not. If you think he is, then there's still hope, but he doesn't get paid like a prospect, so I'm inclined to view him as more of a finished product than Frank or Burke.

shakespeare wrote:Tao. I’m sure New York would rather spend $25 million on a stud player as well. But first, there has to be a stud player willing to sign with New York.

The problem isn’t with THJ — the problem is with the New York Knicks front office inability to sign a stud player, the front office offering THJ a contract you feel he didn’t deserve.

Say it with me: The problem is with the the front office.


You don't have to sign someone just because you have money. If THJ is the difference between being the 9th seed with 35 wins and the 14th seed with 25 wins, why do I want him if I don't feel like he's ever going to be good enough to be a starter on a championship team. Couldn't you just wait til you were good and then find someone else to be THJ later? If we're one "average shooting guard" away, couldn't you just get Courtney lee from the Knicks for a 2nd round pick.

shakespeare wrote:
The same can be said about every single player on the roster, even the ones given the benefit of the doubt.

To constantly throw THJ or any other player’s name out there is to scapegoat.


KP has too many flaws to a starter on a championship team? I don't think so. Everyone else is a question mark, but they're prospects. Youre supposed to evaluate whether or not you think they can be a starter on a championship team. If so, pay them as such. If not, pay them as a prospect or let them walk.
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