can we all just take it down a notch

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Re: can we all just take it down a notch

Postby Don Che » August 4, 2018, 12:19 pm

burke and mario are more young guys than they are vets.

Kanter has atleast seen the playoffs a couple times.

being a vet is more on experience not just age.
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Re: can we all just take it down a notch

Postby NewlyKnicked » August 6, 2018, 5:21 am

Burke is some kind of vet in his own right after what he went through before coming back. Not playoffs experience but resilience/confidence/work are there
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Re: can we all just take it down a notch

Postby Don Che » August 6, 2018, 11:30 am

NewlyKnicked wrote:Burke is some kind of vet in his own right after what he went through before coming back. Not playoffs experience but resilience/confidence/work are there


that is very true.

not many of our young guys have been in winning positions before. Hence us having a competitive team is going to be a uphill battle.
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Re: can we all just take it down a notch

Postby cragganmor » August 6, 2018, 9:42 pm

So many new faces, roles and system. Getting buy-in, that consistent effort is job 1. Second, players fitting the role and executing so that we're competitive.

Only after that, we can focus on winning games, develop that winning mentality seen in contenders, as noted. Even some talented players struggle with this. Look at KAT and Wiggins for example.
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Re: can we all just take it down a notch

Postby shakespeare » August 7, 2018, 10:50 am

Hilarious, it must’ve been meant for me to see this THJ shimmy video after H20 recently spoke on it. https://mobile.twitter.com/nyknicks/sta ... 28/video/1

QUESTION: What basketball player began the shimmy dance? Antoine Walker?
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Re: can we all just take it down a notch

Postby Don Che » August 7, 2018, 11:02 am

Marc Jackson did it before Walker....but it had to be before him tho
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Re: can we all just take it down a notch

Postby StevoStarks » August 7, 2018, 1:44 pm

Don Che wrote:Marc Jackson did it before Walker....but it had to be before him tho


Crazy that I could go from loving Mark Jackson to hating him so much when he was with Indy and shimmying all over the floor against us.
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Re: can we all just take it down a notch

Postby H20Knick » August 7, 2018, 1:49 pm

shakespeare wrote:Hilarious, it must’ve been meant for me to see this THJ shimmy video after H20 recently spoke on it. https://mobile.twitter.com/nyknicks/sta ... 28/video/1

QUESTION: What basketball player began the shimmy dance? Antoine Walker?


what a fucking tool. the guy is a poor man's JR Smith.
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Re: can we all just take it down a notch

Postby shakespeare » August 7, 2018, 7:25 pm

I forgot about Mark Jackson, hilarious. He did it so often that, at one point, he got jiggy with it. I don’t believe a grown man should shimmy, cause it’s just not a good look.

All-Time Shimmy Hit List:
Jackson, Walker, Curry and now THJ, for some strange reason.

The 1 and only time I enjoyed seeing a player shimmy was Chris Paul hitting a long ball in Curry’s face and imitating his annoying shimmy, afterward.

But I definitely co-sign H20’s disgust at seeing THJ shimmy.
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Re: can we all just take it down a notch

Postby shakespeare » August 7, 2018, 7:27 pm

H20Knick wrote:the guy is a poor man's JR Smith.


I never looked at it this way, but there’s some truth to it.

Both players are similar during their hot and cold streaks. At the same time, I believe Hardaway has a lot more sense than JR and less of a distraction on the court.
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Re: can we all just take it down a notch

Postby StevoStarks » August 8, 2018, 12:46 am

shakespeare wrote:I forgot about Mark Jackson, hilarious. He did it so often that, at one point, he got jiggy with it. I don’t believe a grown man should shimmy, cause it’s just not a good look.

All-Time Shimmy Hit List:
Jackson, Walker, Curry and now THJ, for some strange reason.

The 1 and only time I enjoyed seeing a player shimmy was Chris Paul hitting a long ball in Curry’s face and imitating his annoying shimmy, afterward.

But I definitely co-sign H20’s disgust at seeing THJ shimmy.


My favorite moment of the playoffs.
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Re: can we all just take it down a notch

Postby nazrmohamed » August 8, 2018, 2:55 pm

Timmy is nowhere as talented as JR Smith. I mean there are nights to a week that JR could look like a primary option and they're both streaky AF but at least Hardaway fits into a team concept and even then I think Hardaway is more consistent. As I've said before, Hardaway didn't get his percentages by shooting 42% each game, after that injury he shot literally like .100 for like 2 weeks. Doesn't excuse it but I don't feel like the rest of the season we saw Hardaway missing the side of a barn. And again, the way he does it is in the flow of the game. With JR you sometimes felt he wasn't using the same playbook. But damn was he talented.
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Re: can we all just take it down a notch

Postby Don Che » August 8, 2018, 3:20 pm

as much as i criticize Tim .....you guys should know that I'd take him 10x over JR.



but JR is by far more talented.
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Re: can we all just take it down a notch

Postby StevoStarks » August 8, 2018, 3:20 pm

nazrmohamed wrote:Timmy is nowhere as talented as JR Smith. I mean there are nights to a week that JR could look like a primary option and they're both streaky AF but at least Hardaway fits into a team concept and even then I think Hardaway is more consistent. As I've said before, Hardaway didn't get his percentages by shooting 42% each game, after that injury he shot literally like .100 for like 2 weeks. Doesn't excuse it but I don't feel like the rest of the season we saw Hardaway missing the side of a barn. And again, the way he does it is in the flow of the game. With JR you sometimes felt he wasn't using the same playbook. But damn was he talented.


JR is also a better defender than THJ, but I believe that THJ has the athleticism and mental to be a good defender in this league. At age 26, this is a big year for THJ. I want to see him be an integral part of the offense and defense with KP out.
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"Woody was the perfect coach for these mutts."
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Re: can we all just take it down a notch

Postby NewlyKnicked » August 9, 2018, 4:26 am

StevoStarks wrote:JR can be a better defender than THJ, but I believe that THJ has the athleticism and mental to be a good defender in this league. At age 26, this is a big year for THJ. I want to see him be an integral part of the offense and defense with KP out.

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Re: can we all just take it down a notch

Postby H20Knick » August 9, 2018, 9:55 am

But if we're going to talk about Tim's consistency, let's be honest about it. This whole "he was great until he got injured narrative is slightly misguided. If anything, he was more positively consistent at the end of the year.

THJ FG%
Pre Injury (21 games)
Games under .301 - 4 (19%)
.301 to .400 - 5 (24%)
.401 to .500 - 10 (48%)
Games over .501 - 2 (10%)

Post Injury w/ Kristaps (12 games)
Games under .301 - 2 (17%)
.301 to .400 - 3 (25%)
.401 to .500 - 6 (50%)
Games over .501 - 1 (8%)

That distribution is nearly identical to what he was doing pre-injury, and that dataset is the first 12 games he returned.

Post Injury w/o Kristaps (23 games)
Games under .301 - 4 (17%)
.301 to .400 - 3 (13%)
.401 to .500 - 12 (52%)
Games over .501 - 4 (17%)

So for the first 3/5ths of the season, the guy basically had 40% of his games under .401. For the last 2/5ths, he cut that down to 30% of his games. Spree will vehemently argue that THJ is the player that the knicks had in the last 23 games of the season, not the player during the 1st 33. He can point to the 79 games THJ played in Atlanta last season where he did 45.5% from the field... Which is great. I will counter that with the 70 games he played in 2015 where he did 39% from the field... Which is awful. Then we'll take the remaining seasons (43% rookie year, 43% 2016, 42% 2018) and accept that the answer is truth is somewhere in there and it probably involves a whole lot of what we saw this past season. THJ has games where he's highly efficient and games where he's very much not efficient... but he's not a model of consistency on a career scale or within seasons.

I think he'll be fine as the worst starter you have (a la JR Smith in cleveland), but he'd be great as a 6th man. His game screams 6th man to me. It almost reminds me of Jamal Crawford, who the knicks forced to be a starter and he just wasn't built for that but he goes on to be an impact player as 6th man. I think too many fans and players and organizations view 6th man as being not as important as your starters, when really lots of teams have 6th men who are better than someone that's starting. IMO, THJ at 6th man maximizes his talents and minimizes his weaknesses and that's what we should be trying to do for all of our players. It's not a demotion. It's a role adjustment.
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Re: can we all just take it down a notch

Postby spree#8 » August 9, 2018, 12:22 pm

H20, I did a far more complete breakdown here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=40194

But as I said, I don't even want to discuss THJ until the new season starts, so the link above is just a reference, not a sign that I will join another lengthy discussion.

Let me just say one thing: what I think is really funny, that we can expect THJ to produce at Allan Houston's level with Allan Houston's efficiency, yet you love the one and shit on the other. How come?



It really baffles me how people see a bad 3 point percentage and then post lots of stuff without any further context/perspective.
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Re: can we all just take it down a notch

Postby spree#8 » August 9, 2018, 12:29 pm

When it comes to starting five or not, you also have to take into consideration how well players on the team play with each other. THJ was the only player who was in the 4 best 5-men-units, 4 best 4-men-units, 5 best 3-men-units and 2 best 2-men-units. https://www.basketball-reference.com/te ... 8/lineups/

So of course you can think about him as a sixth man when at some point we have a star shooting guard on the roster, but right now it is just nuts, because he will very likely be our best player until KP comes back.
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Re: can we all just take it down a notch

Postby H20Knick » August 9, 2018, 1:25 pm

spree#8 wrote:
Let me just say one thing: what I think is really funny, that we can expect THJ to produce at Allan Houston's level with Allan Houston's efficiency, yet you love the one and shit on the other. How come?



because one guy was a shooting guard in 2000 and the other guy is a shooting guard in 2018 and the expectations for those two different time periods are quite dissimilar.

I also didn't have any love for Allan Houston until he had actually helped us win games, playoff series. He earned that affection. THJ hasn't earned shit.

You know, when Allan Houston went to the playoffs at age 24, he played 9 games at 40mpg, and did 19ppg on 43% from the floor and 50% from deep.
When Tim Hardaway Jr went to the playoffs at age 24, he played 6 games at 33 mpg and did 12.8 ppg on 27% from the floor and 14% from deep.

If THJ hits a series clencher over an arch rival to win a playoff series in a year we make the finals, I'll make him my avatar, change my name to thjknick, and be 1000% happy about it.

In the meantime, I'm not going to get jolly about a cherrypicked 2PT% in 2018 when it's probably the least useful metric for evaluating an non-defending, non-passing NBA guard that there is in 2018.

This is obviously with all due respect, Spree. I'm not coming at you or your stats, and I respect your data and your data presentation. I just don't see why I should consider THJ's shortcomings as neutralized or even outweighed by his 2pt%. If he were a center, sure. But no one cares about Enes Kanter being damn near record breaking in terms of offensive efficiency. They just see the lack of defense, the phony bravado, and his overpaidness, and they want him gone and don't consider him part of the "core" even though he's 26. Well, that's all I see in THJ, and I feel the same damn way.
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Re: can we all just take it down a notch

Postby StevoStarks » August 9, 2018, 1:34 pm

H20Knick wrote:because one guy was a shooting guard in 2000 and the other guy is a shooting guard in 2018 and the expectations for those two different time periods are quite dissimilar.

I also didn't have any love for Allan Houston until he had actually helped us win games, playoff series. He earned that affection. THJ hasn't earned shit.

You know, when Allan Houston went to the playoffs at age 24, he played 9 games at 40mpg, and did 19ppg on 43% from the floor and 50% from deep.
When Tim Hardaway Jr went to the playoffs at age 24, he played 6 games at 33 mpg and did 12.8 ppg on 27% from the floor and 14% from deep.

If THJ hits a series clencher over an arch rival to win a playoff series in a year we make the finals, I'll make him my avatar, change my name to thjknick, and be 1000% happy about it.

In the meantime, I'm not going to get jolly about a cherrypicked 2PT% in 2018 when it's probably the least useful metric for evaluating an non-defending, non-passing NBA guard that there is in 2018.

This is obviously with all due respect, Spree. I'm not coming at you or your stats, and I respect your data and your data presentation. I just don't see why I should consider THJ's shortcomings as neutralized or even outweighed by his 2pt%. If he were a center, sure. But no one cares about Enes Kanter being damn near record breaking in terms of offensive efficiency. They just see the lack of defense, the phony bravado, and his overpaidness, and they want him gone and don't consider him part of the "core" even though he's 26. Well, that's all I see in THJ, and I feel the same damn way.


I'd like to defend Kanter here. I think his bravado is genuine.
"Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind."
- Dr. Seuss

"Woody was the perfect coach for these mutts."
- taowave

"Is he REALLY injured?? A part of me doesnt believe that he is and I think he's just being a bitch. Bitch-nani."
- rynyk222
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