WCS

[thewatcher]

yeah I pretty much agree with Don and H20. This is a REALLY hard decision.. I hope WCS guards Okafor in the finals if its KU_Duke. That will help whoever picks first.

[nazrmohamed]

think WCS's O is worse than Okafor's D... but I also think WCS'S D is better than Okafor's O, or at least will be better at the next level.

I've gone around in circles over this draft though. I started with Okafor, then went to Mudiay, then Towns, then WCS, then Towns, and I think i'm coming back to Okafor. It's just tough to evaluate bigs offensively before they get to the NBA, because generally, no one can guard them until they get to the pros. Have you ever seen a juggernaut offensive scorer struggle to score in the pros though? I dont think so. I always go back to Al Jefferson. He spends all his time on the block, he doesn't really defend, he's a little undersized, but he can score. He could always score. Out of high school, the kid could score the basketball. I don't remember who said it, I think it was KFSL in the Mudiay thread, but I worry about discrediting guys who were so hyped coming out of high school based on their one year between HS and the NBA. Sure, that extra year is supposed to enable a more accurate evaluation, but I dont think I'm being fair if I assume that all of a sudden, Okafor isn't going to be able drop 20 any given night. I also don't think it's fair to assume that Towns is going to be a superstar at the next level.

All I know is, for half a decade, everyone talked about this jahlil okafor kid and how good he was going to be. He was the #1 ranked guy for the 2014 high schoool class as far back as I can remember. Not number 1 by position, just outright number 1. Yeah, he's a lazy defender, and yeah, I've spent the entire year pointing out his defensive lazyness/ineptitude and garbage free throw shooting. But damn, now we're talking about Willie Caulie Stein over him? Karl Anthony Towns over him? I love the attention to how badly we need defenders, but at what point do you draw the line? Are we missing anything? Is it easier to look like a world defender when you're playing next to other great defenders loaded with size? Is it harder to look like a world defnder when you're the only guy above 6'7 in the lineup and your rotation goes 8 deep? I dont have any of these answers. Just raising question.

Well consider this. Jefferson IS a great comparison because he is indeed a great post player, just like Okofor. I believe he is a too 3 post up player in the league in terms of variety of options. Where has it gotten him? Nowhere because he plays no defense and guess what? Jefferson is a great rebounder too probably will be better than Okofor. Between you and KFISF you keep telling me about the changing nba and where the talent is. Ill give Okofor credit for passing but todays bigs play defense and can shoot.

I think Okofor will be a good player I just think his flaws are the scariest in that he'll be just good enough to make you believe in building around him only for those flaws to prevent him from winning. Failing to play defense as a big severely limits your teams chances of winning big. You can make up for offense at four other spots, you cant make up for bad defense at Center. It literally puts a ceiling on your success. But it'll sure as hell keep him paid.

[KnicksFanInSouthFL]

^^^
I agree, nazr...

In response to H20's questions or concerns none of us truly knows how any of these guys will pan out but at least we all have sumthin to discuss/debate while our Knicks are currently stuck in NBA purgatory. I'll be the first to admit that watching all these college games/players has definitely made this NBA season less painful.

That said, Mudiay is the best...

[cragganmor]

wcs disappeared for much of this game, really surprised that he showed little effort, very low motor (for him).

[shakespeare]

Agreed. And now he and the Harrison twins are being ridiculed for not shaking hands. WCS will grow from the loss, though, however stunning.

[cragganmor]

the harrisons are boneheaded asshats. they sulk like they're superstars, as if they are owed.

wcs is just too stunned by playing the worst game of his life in the nat'l semi.

[KnicksFanInSouthFL]

the harrisons are boneheaded asshats. they sulk like they're superstars, as if they are owed.

wcs is just too stunned by playing the worst game of his life in the nat'l semi.

Ya bein' a bit melodramatic... This wasn't even his worst game of the season. But, I agree it's a horrible way to end his college career.

Again I blame his guards (only 5 assists in 94 minutes of playing time)... We know WCS isn't the most offensively skilled player so it's up to the guards to create some easy scoring opportunities for him. But aside from the alley-oop in the first few moments of the game they didn't do shyt else for him.

Credit to the the Badgers they came up with an effective gameplan to neutralize WCS defense by forcing him to chase Kaminsky around screens. Still, i don't think Kaminsky scored more than about 8 points against him.

Oh well, WCS will have a lot more individual success in the future.

[rebound]

wcs will probably go end of lottery.
there's too much potential worth picking before him.

[thewatcher]

Andrew Harrison got caught up in being a hero. WCS is dependent on his gaurds creating, Towns has taken over the low post, he was drifting aimlessly, no way he's fallen out of the top 5 for me.

[nazrmohamed]

I think Frank has taken his spot. And its crazy that Kaminsky was around 10 in most mocks. I wouldn't be surprised to see him jump all the way down to 5. Put it this way, Id draft him before both WCS and Russel.

Whats messed up is people on forums are starting to call Stein.......Jeffires 2.0

[KnicksFanInSouthFL]

I think Frank has taken his spot. And its crazy that Kaminsky was around 10 in most mocks. I wouldn't be surprised to see him jump all the way down to 5. Put it this way, Id draft him before both WCS and Russel.

Whats messed up is people on forums are starting to call Stein.......Jeffires 2.0

Not a chance...

Lemme put it this way, if WCS played with someone like Delon Wright who is a pass first PG, he'd easily average sumthin like 15+ PPG.

He's a freak athlete and his skill set will be maximized at the next level, any GM would be a foolish not to realize that...

[Don Che]

He's too unpolished offensively to ever score that much... but in today's NBA he fits for a lot of pick and roll teams and he fits today's "measurement" age with advanced stats. So GMs will def take him.

And just cuz frank out played him one game doesnt negate WCS being the best defensive player of the year.

Frank is a late lottery pick..10-16 range

[n8 the gr8]

I try not to put too much stake in NCAA games because on one hand it's just a couple of games. On the other hand big games are just that. I was kind of surprised by WCS, it wasn't like he choked or anything I just don't think he got up for this game. He wasn't playing with the intensity that some other people on the floor were playing with. For a guy who's supposed to make a place for himself on defense at the next level that's worrying. Defense in the NBA is so much about focus. There have been great athletes that were in and out of the league, and there have been below average athletes that were great defenders for a long time in the NBA.

All that being said, I still think WCS is a good pick at 5.

I think Frank has taken his spot. And its crazy that Kaminsky was around 10 in most mocks. I wouldn't be surprised to see him jump all the way down to 5. Put it this way, Id draft him before both WCS and Russel.

Whats messed up is people on forums are starting to call Stein.......Jeffires 2.0

I don't want to hear them mentioned in the same sentence. WCS will never be a deadeye 3 point shooter.

[cragganmor]

a lot of any rookie's initial success depends upon the situation. if wcs gets on a team where they share the ball, get it to him near the rim then he will contribute on offense.

it was very worrying that he played so flat in such a huge game. a bit of the old wcs from his previous 2 seasons at uk re-appeared, where he didn't show focus.

i think the comparison to jj is due to his ability to guard every position; the cats switch a lot on d and wcs is often covering guards in 1:1 situations. that's a pretty nice ability to have but i think that kentucky went to that too often; kaminsky had no problem beating booker or one of the harrisons on the low block.

[BXGuy]

did you guys know WCS was a football player, highly recruited...the way he runs the floor is beautiful. He would be the perfect center if we had a stretch 4....oh wait, we have Bargnani...but do we want Bargnani on this team? So many better stretch 4s in the NBA than him.

WCS is essentially the MKG of defense at the center position.

Kentucky has produced some all world defenders in Davis, Noel, MKG. WCS is next and Towns may be up there if he maxes his potential.

I honestly believe WCS is worth a top 5 selection. His offense is terrible beyond him catching lobs or drop offs and scoring in transition. Literally has no post game. Not sure if he will ever develop one, but his defense is too good to pass up.

Draft Express has a scouting report on him.

http://www.draftexpress.com/article/Wil ... kdown-4872

Willie Cauley-Stein NBA Draft Scouting Report and Video Breakdown
by: Jonathan Givony - President, Mike Schmitz
April 8, 2015
Video Analysis by Mike Schmitz. Scouting Report by Jonathan Givony

Willie Cauley-Stein did not come to Kentucky as heralded as some of his teammates, being ranked by most recruiting services in the 40-50 range, and expected to take a backseat to fellow freshmen frontcourt players Nerlens Noel, Kyle Wiltjer and Alex Poythress, all McDonald's All-Americans. Cauley-Stein exceeded expectations from the start, quickly entrenching himself as a key player for John Calipari, seeing 28 minutes in his first college game against Maryland and future top-5 pick Alex Len at the Barclays Center.

Cauley-Stein almost certainly would have been a first round pick following his freshman year, but elected to come back to school, and played a major role in Kentucky's surprising run to the NCAA Final Four as a sophomore. Once again, he decided to turn down the lure of the NBA and returned to Lexington for his junior year, despite being projected as a likely lottery pick. Kentucky returned to the Final Four, with Cauley-Stein playing the best basketball of his career, anchoring a historically great defense that ended the year 38-1, after losing to Wisconsin.

Cauley-Stein has tremendous tools for a modern-day NBA big man, standing over 7-feet in shoes, with a 7-2 wingspan, and a 240 pound frame. He'll be one of the most athletically gifted big men in the NBA right off the bat, as he runs the court like a track star, and is incredibly fluid, agile, quick and explosive.


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Defensively is where he has the chance to be a real game-changer at the NBA level. He legitimately guarded five positions for Kentucky this season, showing incredible versatility and agility covering ground on the perimeter and staying in front of players much smaller than him. His exceptionally quick feet give him the ability to switch seamlessly on pick and rolls, and he does a great job of contesting shots on the perimeter or recovering into the paint and offering rim protection. Cauley-Stein averaged a terrific 3.6 blocks and 1.8 steals per-40 minutes over the course of his career at Kentucky, showing outstanding instincts for forcing turnovers.

Offensively, Cauley-Stein is not particularly prolific, but nevertheless finds ways to contribute in small doses. He is a voracious floor-runner, getting out in transition frequently to beat guards and big men alike, and converting 77% of his field goal attempts in these situations when he does, one of the best rates in college basketball.


He's also a significant weapon to have as a cutter and roller off the ball, where he finishes 61% of his attempts around the basket in non-post-up situations. This was his most frequent source of production in college, especially off lob plays, and will likely continue to be so in the NBA, particularly in pick and roll situations where his ability to just spring up off the floor off two feet for emphatic finishes is a highly coveted skill.

Beyond that, Cauley-Stein is fairly limited, relegated to occasional flashes of offense creating in a straight line from the high post with an extremely quick first step and very rudimentary ball-handling ability. He also showed some improvement with his jump-shot as a junior, knocking down a handful of jumpers on the season, and increasing his free throw percentage from a dismal 37% as a freshman to a much more acceptable 62% as a junior.

He'll also contribute as an offensive rebounder (career 3.9 per-40), as his superior quickness and leaping ability allows him to go well out of his area at times, and his terrific second bounce gives him the ability to convert putbacks off multiple efforts.


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Nevertheless, Cauley-Stein is unlikely to emerge as anything more than a complimentary player at best on the offensive end, as despite turning 22 a few months after the draft, he still shows poor instincts as a scorer and was rarely counted on for consistent production at the college level.

Cauley-Stein is extremely limited with his back to the basket, being unable to consistently score inside the paint at the college level, even with significantly smaller players guarding him. His lack of strength is an issue, which prevents him from establishing deep post position and finishing through contract in traffic, but so is his lack of balance and countermoves which causes him to look rushed and out of control when under pressure. He misses some relatively easy shots around the rim too frequently, showing average touch in the process, and isn't a particularly good passer either, generating an assist on just 7% of his possessions.

Cauley-Stein's defensive rebounding numbers don't jump off the page at 6.6 per-40, which is partially a product of his role at Kentucky and also somewhat of an indication of things he needs to continue to improve on in time. Spending significant time on the perimeter defensively, or challenging opponents around the rim as a rim-protector, Cauley-Stein often isn't in position to make a play on the glass, something that is very much by design. With that said, his lack of strength and average toughness allowed him to get pushed around in the paint at times, and he is not very fundamentally sound in terms of the way he approaches boxing out opponents, often preferring to just use his incredible natural gifts to go out and grab rebounds instead.

Cauley-Stein's focus and intensity-level tend to waver at times, which spills into other parts of his games as well. You don't always quite know what you'll get on any given night with him, as he's somewhat inconsistent with his approach and will appear to simply be going through the motions every so often due to a lack of concentration—not being productive at all. He's gotten much better with this as his career has moved on, but there are still some concerns about whether he'll be able to maintain the same energy-level and be consistent through a long and grueling 82 game season.

With all that said, Cauley-Stein is still likely to be considered one of the top big men in the draft, due to the incredible physical tools he displays combined with the versatility he offers defensively. Long-armed athletic 7-footers like Tyson Chandler or DeAndre Jordan who can offer both rim-protection and the ability to step out onto the perimeter are incredibly rare and coveted in today's NBA, and it was easy to see what Cauley-Stein meant to his Kentucky squad this year on their historic undefeated run.


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[Don Che]

You know whats unfortunate....if we had Melo at 20 years old...I'd prolly take WCS 3rd pick and on maybe even 2.

He's a PERFECT player for a team that already has a young scorer and grow the team from there. basically a great complimentary piece. We kinda need a homerun.

Dumbest thing we ever did was get rid of so many draft picks in every other draft. It kills our progression.

[BXGuy]

Yes, one of the biggest reasons why I hate it when Knicks involve their draft picks in our big trades. Melo is probably my favorite player in the NBA, but an opportunity at a special prospect can't be loss. Really wished Melo signed with us in the off season instead of having Denver trade him to us.

[Don Che]

Yeh would of helped but looking at that trade now..we def got the better of the deal...we could of washed ALL of our mistakes if we amnestied Amar'e instead of Billups tho. But I get why we didnt.

combo of not amnestying Amare(solely for injury reasons) and taking SSOL OVER Thibs is the reason we suck this split second.

Ah well..we have Phil. So I'm good wit it.

[big_j_NY]

Yeh would of helped but looking at that trade now..we def got the better of the deal...we could of washed ALL of our mistakes if we amnestied Amar'e instead of Billups tho. But I get why we didnt.

combo of not amnestying Amare(solely for injury reasons) and taking SSOL OVER Thibs is the reason we suck this split second.

Ah well..we have Phil. So I'm good wit it.

I still didn't get it, that was panic move on Grunwald's part.

The team needed solid guard play a lot more than a defensive anchor in Tyson at that point in time, and we're still paying the price today with the fact that there still hasn't been a consistent PG for Carmelo Anthony since both Billups and the 39-yr old Jason Kidd.

At that point, we should've evaluated Amare's future instead of attempting to "experiment" on Carmelo & an injury-prone Amare being a dynamic duo.

Then again, D'Antoni was still the fucking head coach at the time...........so I do agree with your point there.

[n8 the gr8]

I still didn't get it, that was panic move on Grunwald's part.

The team needed solid guard play a lot more than a defensive anchor in Tyson at that point in time, and we're still paying the price today with the fact that there still hasn't been a consistent PG for Carmelo Anthony since both Billups and the 39-yr old Jason Kidd.

At that point, we should've evaluated Amare's future instead of attempting to "experiment" on Carmelo & an injury-prone Amare being a dynamic duo.

Then again, D'Antoni was still the fucking head coach at the time...........so I do agree with your point there.

That's one way to think about. You could also figure that the team could've had a defensive anchor in titan and solid guard play out of Billups if they amnestied Amare and signed Tyson.

Or they could've declined Billups contract, then amnestied Amare and had Melo plus a ton of cap space.

This isn't the thread to get into it, but there was a lot that went wrong there.