[Merged] Kristaps Porzingis is Going to Become a Perennial All-Star

[H20Knick]

I am hard on him. I know that. It's the role I play here. It's what brings me back for all the reasons you just said.

The idea of "all we have to do is plug in around KP and we will be fine" is just ludicrous to me. It drives me mad. I wasn't alive the last time the Knicks won a title. I've seen Carolina basketball win 3. I've seen the Saints win 1. I don't really watch any other sports, and my knicks obsession dwarfs all of my other interests by a pretty substantial margin. I'm tired of not being competitive. I'm over hoping that a bunch of glue guys and blue collar workers are going to come together and achieve some sort of 05 Pistons miracle because the stars aligned.

I don't want KP to be the scapegoat. He doesn't deserve that. Melo didn't deserve it. Steph didn't deserve it. No player deserves it. It's on the organization to put the pieces in play. I worry that people don't realize how long ago it was when an alignment of "good players" won a title playing traditional basketball. It's 2018. The young guys in the NBA who will dominate the next era don't even know what 90s basketball means. They grew up in an AAU system that doesn't teach any of those principles. The last titles have been won by guys who are literally otherworldly in their talents. Lebron is in the running for one of the best players of all time. Steph Curry is quite possibly the greatest shooter of all time. Durant blends aspects of both of those guys. Kristaps is just not on that level. You knew what Lebron was going to be in high school. As much as my ACC superiority complex balked at the notion, smarter people knew what Curry was going to be when he was dropping 30 point games at Davidson. How did anyone draft Oden over Durant? Oh, because they thought it was still a big man's game. Cousins is the most talented traditional big by a pretty decent margin, he doesn't win. I'm a huge DeAndre fan and he's the defensive stud of defensive studs in the paint, he couldn't even get to the conference finals with a world class point guard, a stud PF, a lights out shooting guard, and a hall of fame coach. Enes Kanter went out and gave you double double after double double. Gobbling up rebis like a true lunch pail kinda guy. But you want to trade him because he isn't the absolute perfect match to KP. I get it. Getting KP was a godsend. The only good thing that's happened to us in years (although I must say, Frank can realllllllly defend). But teams that know how to win would say "good. we have a piece. let's add pieces". The Knicks fanbase instead says "okay, we have KP, how can we add pieces that fit KP so that KP gets to be the messiah no matter what". Be damned all the games we watched this season where a non-knicks fan would argue that Kanter was outplaying KP. Be damned all the games this year where THJ looked like he was the man on the team. It's all about how we're going to fit KP.

We have to play a traditional lineup because KP can't play the 5. We have to find some bonafide two-way playing super athlete at the 3 spot because we "already have" a future franchise pg who is offensively limited, a franchise sg who is mediocre defensively, a franchise PF who you can't run an offense through, and our C needs to be specialized to be physical when KP won't be, get rebounds because KP doesn't clean the glass, and be a low post scoring threat because KP doesn't like to score in the post.

Can't we just cut the bullshit, call KP a valuable piece of a bigger puzzle, and just accept that we have barely begun to rebuild this team? We are nowhere near a position to be trying to fit pieces around current guys. The current guys haven't proven anything. You try to configure pieces around Westbrook, Harden, and probably Kyrie Irving. Preferably guys with some all NBA teams and some MVP votes under their belt. Guys that have proven that they have the mental ability, the physical ability, the maturity, and most importantly, the desire to be all the franchise needs it to be at any cost. That's not to say that KP can't be there in a few years, but he's not there yet. And the Knick aren't there yet either. But you'd never believe it listening to the fanbase that thinks we're just one perfect fitting puzzle piece away from growing into a title contender.

[lxn_]

^^exactly...
please dont be too sensitive when in comes to criticism towards KP. pointing out his weaknesses doesnt mean one wants him traded. I brought up the "kp alpha or not" question a while back but that doesn't mean i want him traded. I believe he still has a way to go to become a superstar. Firstly, this offseason he should reach atleast 245lbs, then increase his gas tank and play around 34+ mins every game. I was really disappointed because despite the workout vids he posted, theres a good chance he is still below 240lbs. This is his third year already, he should be able to adapt better by now.

[H20Knick]

^^exactly...
please dont be too sensitive when in comes to criticism towards KP. pointing out his weaknesses doesnt mean one wants him traded. I brought up the "kp alpha or not" question a while back but that doesn't mean i want him traded. I believe he still has a way to go to become a superstar. Firstly, this offseason he should reach atleast 245lbs, then increase his gas tank and play around 34+ mins every game. I was really disappointed because despite the workout vids he posted, theres a good chance he is still below 240lbs. This is his third year already, he should be able to adapt better by now.

Well he spent the summer playing for Latvia. He put on weight before last season and then had lost it all by midseason. So this offseason he plays in Eurobasket and then wonders why he's getting bodied by Patty Mills and he's burnt out the first week of January. As a man, I will never, ever fault a player for wanting to rep his country in the offseason. Especially when youre the best player the country has ever had.... But as a Knicks fan, it makes me question his commitment to the bigger picture. It's unfortunate that some guys are just more physically gifted and prepared for the NBA than others. But if you know thats your weakness, you should address it. It's year 3 now. He's out of excuses on this one. Pretty pictures and plots aside, it was his 32.7 mpg to duncan and dirk's 38-39 mpg in year 3 that stood out a whole lot to me. That's a big gap, especially for someone who is exhausted in January.

[nazrmohamed]

Its good to have you back. I'm just pissed you let me twist in the wind out there like the lone tanker out here. Actually rebound was there a bit too but he wants to go firing everybody.

I actually like this team, I like the different fits we have. I like that they work hard despite KPs words. I feel like he could've just not opened his mouth while actually being slightly lazier and nobody wouldve noticed. But he had to open his big mouth so there ya go.

But I don't think this team is that bad, I just don't think they're any good which to me is the worst thing we could be right now. I 100% expected us to have the worst record in this league while watching KP and Frank stat stuff. Now that I know what we're capable of there's really nothing else for this team to prove. I wouldn't be mad if Jeff said. " okok KP, you're tired? Then why don't you have a seat".

I think it's time to set ourselves up to draft where we need to. Spree already showed us that we're broke. WE CANT AFFORD FAs. So the draft is the only way to significantly improve our team. And if we tank while keeping this team together, then I feel even better about next season. We've shown that healthy we could be a .500 team. So imagine next year and Frank has s year under his belt, KP has another off-season weight regiment, Hardaway is healthy and Porter is now on the team, Bagley, Ayton, Djoncic. Even Mikal Bridges who I thought of as a "fit" player is playing himself out of where we are drafting.


I'm sorry folks, I'm rooting for losses.

[nazrmohamed]

Just keep in mind though. In year 3 the Spurs were a bonafide contender. They were contenders his rookie year. Dirks Dallas teams had insane talent on it. Thier 8th man was Antoine Walker I think.

KP is fine. We're not talented enough, then a major piece is hurt. We lose a game, you put a Mic in his face and he thinks being transparent will endere him to us. Believe it or not that's where Melo would've been a leader and told him , "dude this is NY, nobody actually wants transparency. They'll pretend they do but really they want you to tell them what they want to hear. Keep your mouth shut, say generic answers and just play through it."

But anyway, we put unnecessary pressure on this team by having these ridiculous playoff expectations and funny thing I knew it would happen. We didn't associate having a 54 win season if it meant losing in the second round, you think 2 yrs from now people are gonna remember that we acted like try hard and still missed the playoffs? You think fans, and I'm not talking other teams laughing fans, I mean our fans. You think those fans are gonna treat you like these hero overachiever. In fact the opposite happens. Because they smell a little success the narrative shifts to Horniceks rotations. His managing of the 4rth quarter. Now KP isn't a leader, isn't a star (not saying you said this h20). Look how quickly we go from overachieving lottery team, to underachieving near playoff team.


And I predicted it. We're supposed to suck folks. No guilt. We traded our star player and promoted our rookie contract stud. As H20 said, let's not put him in the same position as Melo and simply hope he's more unselfish. He needs help and I'd prefer if that help were peers rather than elder role players

[taowave]

Ok......Here we go...

I am an intellectual tanker knowing full well that is the best course of action...Buts thats in theory..

Hornacek has done a pretty dam good job with a roster that is not very good. 16-18 with Hardaway being out is worthy of praise...

The question is if we are to head south without intentionally doing so,what exactly are the tankers saying...

Do we move Kanter,assuming there is a market?

Do we play Frank 30 minutes plus?

Cut Sessions and bring in Burke or some other project?

Keep in mind Mills believes success breed success.

It appears we may be learning that KP is not the Alpha and needs to be the second fiddle. I am not terribly impressed with Frank on the offensive end.

IMHO we need to get far more athletic,find a legit 3, decide on what to do with Kanter and where does KP fit best

[spree#8]

First of all, excellent post H20! Thanks for the work you put in there.

But: as a guy who has a lot to do with statistics at work and who has followed the NBA for a long time I would like to suggest some adjustments to your analysis. Of course identifying the right components to compare players with is the critical part for your analysis leading to the right conclusions and I don't think that you have chosen the optimal stats to compare number one options on championship teams. My list would compile just the following four stats:

1) PPG. Self explanatory, because your number one option has to be an elite scorer.
2) TS%: forget about eFG% or any other percentage. There is only one percentage that matters and that's true shooting percentage, because it tells you exactly how efficient a player scores, while everything else tells you more about the "how" but not the "how good". Again pretty easy to understand why we need this stat: your number one option has to be one of the most efficient scorers in the playoffs to be able to lead you to the promised land.
3) PER: instead of looking at RPG or APG or ... in addition to points, the inclusion of PER is the best choice when you want to look at the question whether a player contributes besides scoring for you. That he does is very important, but what exactly he contributes in addition? Not so much. It's easy to put an elite rebounder besides your top gun if needed or an elite shot creator if that's what is missing.
4) MPG: if your number one is doing well in the above three stat categories, what you now want is that guy being able to do that for 38-40 MPG. Often teams are playing well above the plus in plus/minus-stats with their top gun on the court, but struggle with that guy on the bench. So of course you want your top gun to be able to be your workhorse that stabilizes everything you do.

Now we should also compare KP to the relevant guys, number ones (and twos or threes - if we want to argue that KP is more like that): Jordan, Pippen, Duncan, Robinson, O'Neal, Bryant, Parker, Billups, Wallace, Ginobili, Wade, Garnett, Pierce, Allen, P. Gasol, Nowitzki, James, Bosh, Leonard, Curry, Irving, Durant.

I'm not saying, that the result will be much different - so again I applaud your effort - I'm just saying that we have to identify the right characteristics of a number one option first. The statistician would test all variables whether the contribution is statistically significant in comparison to other players in the league, but of course I agree that a simple "eye test" could be enough for our purposes.

I would throw usage out, because if you are a high scorer at an efficient true shooting percentage and have a high PER, I doubt that usage will add any valuable information. It is also a tricky variable, because an efficient scorer with a high usage is great for your team, while an inefficient one with a high usage is bad. So the algebraic sign (plus or minus) is unclear.

eFG% gets thrown out, because it just isn't a good statistic and we have THE one real shooting percentage as a stat available in TS%.

RPG, APG get thrown out, because they are position biased - although I agree that KP has to improve in both categories. An asterisk: if you put weaknesses of KP in, but leave strengths (like BPG) out, that is a reason for a statistical analysis to be criticized. But instead of putting more variables in, I think as mentioned focusing on PER is enough to get a picture whether someone contributes across the board or not.

DWS/DBPM/VORP get thrown out, because all stats that measure win shares or defensive impact etc. are good stats to look at after the fact that your team has won a lot, but are IMO very weak when it comes to explain that said success.

Just my 50 cents on this. So if your modeling is not too time consuming, I would be very interested to see the results of a component analysis with just those four stats and among the mentioned players. Of course it can also be interesting to add some players that are considered future number ones (like you did).

[spree#8]

I am hard on him. I know that. It's the role I play here. It's what brings me back for all the reasons you just said.

The idea of "all we have to do is plug in around KP and we will be fine" is just ludicrous to me. It drives me mad. I wasn't alive the last time the Knicks won a title. I've seen Carolina basketball win 3. I've seen the Saints win 1. I don't really watch any other sports, and my knicks obsession dwarfs all of my other interests by a pretty substantial margin. I'm tired of not being competitive. I'm over hoping that a bunch of glue guys and blue collar workers are going to come together and achieve some sort of 05 Pistons miracle because the stars aligned.

I don't want KP to be the scapegoat. He doesn't deserve that. Melo didn't deserve it. Steph didn't deserve it. No player deserves it. It's on the organization to put the pieces in play. I worry that people don't realize how long ago it was when an alignment of "good players" won a title playing traditional basketball. It's 2018. The young guys in the NBA who will dominate the next era don't even know what 90s basketball means. They grew up in an AAU system that doesn't teach any of those principles. The last titles have been won by guys who are literally otherworldly in their talents. Lebron is in the running for one of the best players of all time. Steph Curry is quite possibly the greatest shooter of all time. Durant blends aspects of both of those guys. Kristaps is just not on that level. You knew what Lebron was going to be in high school. As much as my ACC superiority complex balked at the notion, smarter people knew what Curry was going to be when he was dropping 30 point games at Davidson. How did anyone draft Oden over Durant? Oh, because they thought it was still a big man's game. Cousins is the most talented traditional big by a pretty decent margin, he doesn't win. I'm a huge DeAndre fan and he's the defensive stud of defensive studs in the paint, he couldn't even get to the conference finals with a world class point guard, a stud PF, a lights out shooting guard, and a hall of fame coach. Enes Kanter went out and gave you double double after double double. Gobbling up rebis like a true lunch pail kinda guy. But you want to trade him because he isn't the absolute perfect match to KP. I get it. Getting KP was a godsend. The only good thing that's happened to us in years (although I must say, Frank can realllllllly defend). But teams that know how to win would say "good. we have a piece. let's add pieces". The Knicks fanbase instead says "okay, we have KP, how can we add pieces that fit KP so that KP gets to be the messiah no matter what". Be damned all the games we watched this season where a non-knicks fan would argue that Kanter was outplaying KP. Be damned all the games this year where THJ looked like he was the man on the team. It's all about how we're going to fit KP.

We have to play a traditional lineup because KP can't play the 5. We have to find some bonafide two-way playing super athlete at the 3 spot because we "already have" a future franchise pg who is offensively limited, a franchise sg who is mediocre defensively, a franchise PF who you can't run an offense through, and our C needs to be specialized to be physical when KP won't be, get rebounds because KP doesn't clean the glass, and be a low post scoring threat because KP doesn't like to score in the post.

Can't we just cut the bullshit, call KP a valuable piece of a bigger puzzle, and just accept that we have barely begun to rebuild this team? We are nowhere near a position to be trying to fit pieces around current guys. The current guys haven't proven anything. You try to configure pieces around Westbrook, Harden, and probably Kyrie Irving. Preferably guys with some all NBA teams and some MVP votes under their belt. Guys that have proven that they have the mental ability, the physical ability, the maturity, and most importantly, the desire to be all the franchise needs it to be at any cost. That's not to say that KP can't be there in a few years, but he's not there yet. And the Knick aren't there yet either. But you'd never believe it listening to the fanbase that thinks we're just one perfect fitting puzzle piece away from growing into a title contender.

I 100% agree with this. You guys know that I was the first on the KP bandwagon, but that doesn't mean that we don't have to figure out what he is now. He is a special piece, but whether that's as a number one, two or three option on a championship level team remains to be seen. He got the number one option role handed to him, now we have to observe whether he can really grow into that or not. I would argue that it is still too early to tell - because he is so unique and as I stated above I would look at different stats - but right now there is a lot to worry about and those things are exactly the things we have to argue about while observing/deciding what he is capable of. So I'm still on the bandwagon that he will be a very valuable piece, but right now I'm as worried as you that he just doesn't have all the tools needed to be a number one.

And that is absolutely OK. Doesn't change anything for a strategically well run team (which of course the new regime still has to prove it is capable of). Why doesn't it change much? Because either way you search for another guy capable of being a number one and let the players/coaches figure it out.

[taowave]

While we are at it

MIAMI — Kristaps Porzingis has struggled recently living up to the designation as Knicks franchise player, admitting fatigue through 38 games.

Two European-based scouts aren’t surprised, suggesting the natural makeup of an international player isn’t best suited for that role. They see Porzingis as an All-Star — just not necessarily a superstar.

Tim Shea, a former European scout with the Knicks and the Bobcats/Hornets who has lived for years in Barcelona, Spain, said it’s uncommon for a European to embrace mentally that status as an NBA franchise guy in the same way as an American-born AAU player. Only Dirk Nowitzki — and it took him many years — fully accepted that franchise-player responsibility.

“It’s because Europeans have learned the game as a ‘team game’ above all,’’ Shea told The Post. “[Porzingis] is at the very best an All-Star like Pau Gasol that can assist and become a great complementary player to some NBA big gun. He can only be cast as a piece of a rebuild that is a long way from anywhere.”

Shea said the “KP’’ moniker should now stand for “Keep Plowing’’ as he battles enormous expectations. Porzingis kicked up a fuss when he mentioned Thursday after a loss in Washington he was “so tired.” He is looking for a second wind to the season and is anxiously awaiting Tim Hardaway Jr.’s expected January return.
“A Unicorn is only the hero in fairy tales,” Shea said. “Is he a talented, long and very profitable piece? Yes, but not a franchise [player].”

Never having a European-born coach with the Knicks — or one with international coaching experience — doesn’t help matters, according to Shea. The former Knicks scout who was opposed to the drafting of Frederic Weis feels an American coach may sometimes not relate fully to an international player’s mindset.

The Knicks felt they needed to trade Carmelo Anthony to thrust Porzingis into the face-of-the-franchise position, but he’s only 22 years old and in his third season. After an MVP-like start, Porzingis’ shooting percentage has dipped to 43.9 percent. In the last 19 games he has shot 39.9 percent.

With All-Star voting beginning on Christmas, his downturn could hurt his chances of being named a starter. He is currently fourth among Eastern Conference frontcourt players in the fan voting, behind Giannis Antetokounmpo, LeBron James and Joel Embiid.

“If the Garden continues to think and sell that Porzingis is a franchise player, they might as well let Willy Hernangomez play the point,’’ one NBA scout with European connections said. “It is not going to happen. KP has only played on a losing team as a pro in Spain and a losing team in New York. They have a lot of good, young Europeans — KP, Frank (Ntilikina), (Enes) Kanter, Willy. We can now start to care about the team, but please don’t believe KP will lead you to the end of the yellow brick road by himself. It’s idiotic to put him in that position.’’

Porzingis’ offensive rating was 109.2 in his first 19 games, but it is 102.2 since Dec. 6.Charles Wenzelberg
Porzingis, who is averaging 23.7 points, scored just 2 points in the second half in Washington and was inactive defensively. The burden of leading the Knicks every game has taken its toll. The Knicks are 1-6 in their last seven games, falling two games below .500 at 18-20 for the first time since they started 1-3.

Despite his dire words, Porzingis hoped the good weather in Miami would resuscitate him, though Florida also has had a chill — much like Porzingis’ mid-range jumper — with temperatures in the 50’s.

“Little bumps and bruises and things like that that you play through affects you a little bit,” Porzingis said. “Once I’m playing I want to delete that completely out of my head and not think about it. As you go forward, more and more stuff add up, but it’s normal. It’s nothing to keep complaining about. We just have to keep pushing forward, get as much rest as I can and try to be as fresh as I can for every game.”

[taowave]

Spree,what stats would you look at,and lets ignore the D for now...

From a very quick glance,what makes KP special is his ability to shoot the 3 ball while standing 7'3"...That immediately pops out...

Perhaps he is suffering from anemia or playing with anemic point guards.Thats a very real possibility..

What concerns me the most is he gets absolutely manhandled by much smaller guys...

That completely negates one of the attributes that makes him special....7' 3"

I would argue that it is still too early to tell - because he is so unique and as I stated above I would look at different stats - So I'm still on the bandwagon that he will be a very valuable piece, but right now I'm as worried as you that he just doesn't have all the tools needed to be a number one.

[spree#8]

Spree,what stats would you look at,and lets ignore the D for now...

Look at my post above the one you answered to.

Here a look why: https://www.basketball-reference.com/pl ... y=mp_per_g

Most number one options of our time excelled in efficient scoring (PPG, TS%) while contributing in other areas (PER) and playing a lot of MPG. Bryant wasn't as efficient as the guys that made the list (but an elite defender), Duncan, Robinson, Garnett also were more defensive anchors than elite scorers and the others are more number twos or threes. Those stats also explain why Dirk won a chip without much help and why Wade was able to lead the Heat to a chip with O'Neal scoring less than 14 PPG in the finals. And of course why the Warriors got where they got.

[nazrmohamed]

Another thing about stats unless I'm missing something is they very rarely show how a player will behave under different variables. For example, I could probably venture to say that most teams that lack great point guard play run lots of isolation.

Am I right? Until you correct me I'm gonna say I'm right. Now, with that in mind I'm gonna then give any non pg on that team a grain of salt when it comes to them needing to create thier own offense. And KP isn't yet elite at it, which H20 has pointed out. But that's my thing, why did DeAndre Jordan get to escape this critique and still be beloved, why does Blake Griffin, why do most bigs? Because they have a playmaker to distribute. We haven't provided that yet. And KP himself isn't one. Hes a finisher essentially. Can he score on his own, yes. But it'll always be drastically more inefficient than when he's assisted.

And to me there are only 2 types of elite pgs. You are either elite because you can score or you are elite because you generate assists. Frank needs to show me something here. And that's not to blame him here but if I'm planning my future it's gonna be an issue once the newness wears off. You gotta have expectations of an 8th pick. And it's gotta be one of those things. I love his defense but to be worthy of his draft selection he's gotta be elite in one of those two categories. 12&10 with defense made Rondo elite and he couldn't even shoot. Jason Kidd was a 12 pt star, Jackson, Stockton. You don't have to be throwing up 20 points like all the other elite pgs. I can u Bertrand if you have a different niche. But you can't come out here getting 2 assists in a game you scored 7 points and I'm supposed to live you cuz you play defense. Especially in a league where there really no stopping anybody with individual defense

[Don Che]

ppl are really going over the top with this.

if KP the best player or second best player of a great team what does it matter...hes a part of our future regardless and if he leaves..that would set us back another 2015 year to land a guy in that talent level.

ppl said the same things about Ewing...all ppl did was complain and harp on the things he couldnt do....till he left and everyone jocked him ever since.

posts like H20's and some others here is exactly why the media thinks you cant rebuild here. Why cant we just let the year play out....and make the best basketball decisions from there.

oh and lets be clear...Lebron/KD are all time talents..if your waiting for that type of talent...go to sleep and wake up in 10 years when some bionic kid is killin the game and pray we land him....I'd throw Ben Simmons in that boat also. huge fan of his

and lets take a look at Curry who is...the greatest shooter of all time...what was he doing at 22?...hmm lets see...19/6 and a 112 defensive rating....did the warriors complain and throw him out of town because he wasnt the messiah?...no...they ran its course...took the hits...and drafted the pieces to match Curry, Klay is a top 5 shooter in the NBA imo. Is Curry the messiah? not in the SLIGHTEST but what did the Warriors do? they slowly built a team around him and took his greatest skill(shooting) and put passers/defenders all over him so make him the best player on the best team in regular season history. But is Curry on Lebrons level? nope...KD's level? not at all..i think if u put Curry on worst team in the NBA today and he'd drop 25-30 and lose.... there are only 2 tops 4 players that can single handedly take a team to the playoffs alone. KP isnt those guys but teams win big...lets just continue building...if a player comes along and is better than KP..wonderful if a player comes along that matches KP...still wonderful

[spree#8]

My explanation simplified: your number one has to score (PPG), do that efficiently (TS%), contribute in other areas (PER) and help you on as many possessions as possible (MPG).

[spree#8]

ppl are really going over the top with this.

if KP the best player or second best player of a great team what does it matter...hes a part of our future regardless and if he leaves..that would set us back another 2015 year to land a guy in that talent level.

ppl said the same things about Ewing...all ppl did was complain and harp on the things he couldnt do....till he left and everyone jocked him ever since.

posts like H20's and some others here is exactly why the media thinks you cant rebuild here. Why cant we just let the year play out....and make the best basketball decisions from there.

... KP isnt those guys but teams win big...lets just continue building...if a player comes along and is better than KP..wonderful if a player comes along that matches KP...still wonderful

Don, don't worry. I think the bold part is exactly what the Knicks will do.

[Don Che]

only question mark is really Kanter...everything else i think we know where it stands.

[spree#8]

only question mark is really Kanter...everything else i think we know where it stands.

I don't see a question mark there. You let him decide whether he wants to opt out or not and if he does you put a price tag on him that you think is right for the future. If he takes that or opts in, he is in for next season. If not, he is out and you have created cap room. I don't trade him, because a) he is playing well and could be a piece for the future at the right price tag and b) we want to clear a logjam, so we ideally don't want players back, but a pick. So if you want a pick for Kanter, that comes with a bad contract. If you take a player instead of a pick, first of all you have to find one you like better at the current price tag and secondly if it is another big, you haven't cleared the logjam. So it is very unlikely that a front office that thinks this through will trade Kanter.

I mean: do you want to trade for George Hill? You clear the logjam, Ntili gets a better guard to learn from, but Hill's contract has one more guaranteed year than Kanter's. This is the kind of deal we would speak of and in a Kanter/Hill trade we likely wouldn't even get a pick, because we probably would want the player.

[spree#8]

Back to the theme: I am with Don here. It doesn't really matter what KP will become for our planning right now. We focus on building him up as much as we can and then add through draft, free agency and trades. KG, Pierce and Allen for example all weren't good enough to be a number one over an extended run, but once they were put together they won their chip.

[taowave]

Interesting.When looking at the list,its clear (to me) as to why KP is no where near elite status....

We are far too enamored with a 7'3" guys ability to hit the 3,and if you look at the greats from that list,9 0f the 11 were poor 3 pt shooters.Only Kyrie and Steph excel there,and unlike KP,they can hit the 3 off the dribble and create for themselves.

Each and every one of those guys on that list are far more efficient that KP inside the arc,and that is what may be KP's achilles heel.

The big boys shoot above 53% down low,and lets face it,KP is a big boy as far as height.Except he has a sub average post up game,lacks strength to hold position and isnt quick enough to beat guys off the dribble..

Kevin Durant is a Unicorn who I would want to have the ball in the final 24 seconds.KP is not yet that guy.far from it

If you like that list,KP needs to shoot 50% plus from inside the ARC..

Look at my post above the one you answered to.

Here a look why: https://www.basketball-reference.com/pl ... y=mp_per_g

Most number one options of our time excelled in efficient scoring (PPG, TS%) while contributing in other areas (PER) and playing a lot of MPG. Bryant wasn't as efficient as the guys that made the list (but an elite defender), Duncan, Robinson, Garnett also were more defensive anchors than elite scorers and the others are more number twos or threes. Those stats also explain why Dirk won a chip without much help and why Wade was able to lead the Heat to a chip with O'Neal scoring less than 14 PPG in the finals. And of course why the Warriors got where they got.

[spree#8]

Interesting.When looking at the list,its clear (to me) as to why KP is no where near elite status....

We are far too enamored with a 7'3" guys ability to hit the 3,and if you look at the greats from that list,9 0f the 11 were poor 3 pt shooters.Only Kyrie and Steph excel there,and unlike KP,they can hit the 3 off the dribble and create for themselves.

Each and every one of those guys on that list are far more efficient that KP inside the arc,and that is what may be KP's achilles heel.

The big boys shoot above 53% down low,and lets face it,KP is a big boy as far as height.Except he has a sub average post up game,lacks strength to hold position and isnt quick enough to beat guys off the dribble..

Kevin Durant is a Unicorn who I would want to have the ball in the final 24 seconds.KP is not yet that guy.far from it

If you like that list,KP needs to shoot 50% plus from inside the ARC..

Too early to tell. Like Dirk, KP has 50/40/90 potential, but he has to find his comfort zone and become a lot more durable. So far he has shown flashes, but the great ones are consistently great. Asterisk: my list is a list of playoff career numbers over a good chunk of games (50 or more per player), so I think we should wait till we have played in the playoffs...

But it is IMO the right list to identify what makes the number one options so special.